Race to the top

[Masters Off]

A curious question for those better informed;

As a person naive to the ways of the airline industry, I must inquire. I see pay rates of top positions (non-management) in the high 100K or better mark. But say someone started today at Air Canada. How long, and what are the odds one would make it to a high pay rate, in the left seat of the most lucrative aircraft (assuming that's the 777 at the moment) Or perhaps for West Jet, with the stagnation and more co-captain flying happening, the odds of moving up there.

When it comes to the smaller, less notorious companies, where will it lead at the end of a career. Assuming one of the 200 hour wonders reading this actually intends to fulfill the dream of flying the biggest, best paying or otherwise best lifestyle "tin" then where does it leave them.

I'm sure pay is great for some of the generations past, who aren't just starting in the industry, but let's say a 18 year old, with his/her 200 hours, a few years later is sitting at somewhere like EVAS, Georgian, Perimiter, Carson, or the like with that elusive 500 MPIC Turbine time under their belt. If money was the only answer (forget lifestyle, location), what's the right answer?

I ask, because I think a few people reading this might like to be educated on the fact that C, D scale pays are coming into effect, their odds of one day flying a 777-300ER might not be all that viable. Then again, I don't fly it, nor do I fly for the company that owns it, so what do I know. Prove me wrong, or don't. Maybe there's a better avenue. Maybe there's a king air job on a 703 OC that I've never heard of that's the bees knees.

Come on, industry professionals (bush, float, medevac, airline, corporate, spray, military, etc.) Show me the money!

[Colonel Sanders]

If big pay is what you're after, you're barking up the wrong tree.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/pf/ ... .moneymag/

Following are median yearly pay:

Anesthesiologist $290,000
General Surgeon $260,000
Emergency Room Physician $250,000
Obstetrician $210,000
Psychiatrist $185,000

Get your MD.

[Masters Off]

I didn't ask about other careers, however Col. I asked about this one. For that kid I met the other day in the midst of his CPL with no idea what lays ahead. I have an alright idea of what I'm doing and how, and in all fairness that's not really your concern.

I'm asking if prospective pilots from different areas can highlight the best and the averages of what they see for their coworkers out there. Pay, lifestyle, days off, as they see fit. I know my bit, but I don't think it's fair I just ramble off numbers from . or just give my one sided view. Hence why I'm asking opinions.

[sportingrifle]

Aviation is my passion and I have a wonderful career that I wouldn't trade for anything. It has not however been easy, although neither has it been for my MD or P Eng. or lawyer friends. From my own personal experience, here is a rough "back of the envelope" breakdown of off how the lives of a random 100 pilots with new commercial, multi IFR's will pan out. YMMV.

20 will never be paid anything ever to fly an airplane.

20 will work really crappy jobs seasonally and give up after a year or two, often because they met the "love/lust of their life" who doesn't want to move to Fort Nowhere to be with them.

5 will die in an airplane.

5 or so will work as flight instructors, finally becoming Class 1 or 2's and make a career out of it.

5 will catch the bush flying bug and spend their life doing it, and by necessity becoming very good at it.

5 will join the military.

Another 5 or so will enter and stay in the corporate world.

15 or so will spend their lives flying King Airs, Citations etc for charter companies.

5 will walk through the one way door and do the expat overseas flying thing.

10 will work for a regional such as Porter, Sky Regional, etc.

After doing one or more of the above, 3 will nearly starve to death as an Encore F/O, then many more years as an Encore Capt., all the while trying to be noticed by the bosses at WJ as a rising star. Then a very long stretch as a WJ F/O because Encore killed off the expansion and the Capts are young and aren't even close to retiring, and finally, about 30+ years from their first solo, a decade in the left seat of 737 at really good wages -$150K+.

After doing one or more of the above for a number of years, 2 will nearly starve to death on Air Canada's new hire pay, finally after 4-8 years becoming an A320 F/0. Can now raise a family if you live in a suburban townhouse and drive old cars. hings slowly improve and in your early 50's you are a widebody F/O making pretty good money. In your late 50's or early 60's the coveted widebody left seat comes through and you will enjoy 5-10 years making over 200K.

I am not trying to be a smartass, these numbers are representative of what I have seen. Do what you love, the money will follow. If you want to fly just for money and lifestyle, you will most likely end up in one of the two early culled 20% categories.

Good luck, and enjoy the journey. If you love flying more than anything else, you will go far.

Sportingrifle

[arctic_slim]

First thing I say to any young/new/beginner pilots is taht if you want money, you're in the wrong career.

"sportingrifle" I think gave a fair assessment of how things seem to be in the industry. I think it also depends on your goals. From what I have seen, northern flying seems to pay more in the short term, and what I mean by that is you'll see younger guys being captains and making decent money earlier in their careers if they stick around. If your goal is to go for a major airline I think you should be prepared for lower wages for a longer time until you can get all the experience you need to get to an airline and then survive those first few years at minimal pay as an FO/SO.

[Colonel Sanders]

if you want money, you're in the wrong career

I tried mentioning that. Didn't get much traction.

This advice will not be well-received, but ...

I firmly believe that everyone should take ALL
of the USEFUL education that they are capable
of, that they have an interest in.

People here will tell you otherwise, but ignorance
and inability is rarely an advantage.

['97 Tercel]

Aviation is my passion and I have a wonderful career that I wouldn't trade for anything. It has not however been easy, although neither has it been for my MD or P Eng. or lawyer friends. From my own personal experience, here is a rough "back of the envelope" breakdown of off how the lives of a random 100 pilots with new commercial, multi IFR's will pan out. YMMV.

20 will never be paid anything ever to fly an airplane.

20 will work really crappy jobs seasonally and give up after a year or two, often because they met the "love/lust of their life" who doesn't want to move to Fort Nowhere to be with them.

5 will die in an airplane.

5 or so will work as flight instructors, finally becoming Class 1 or 2's and make a career out of it.

5 will catch the bush flying bug and spend their life doing it, and by necessity becoming very good at it.

5 will join the military.

Another 5 or so will enter and stay in the corporate world.

15 or so will spend their lives flying King Airs, Citations etc for charter companies.

5 will walk through the one way door and do the expat overseas flying thing.

10 will work for a regional such as Porter, Sky Regional, etc.

After doing one or more of the above, 3 will nearly starve to death as an Encore F/O, then many more years as an Encore Capt., all the while trying to be noticed by the bosses at WJ as a rising star. Then a very long stretch as a WJ F/O because Encore killed off the expansion and the Capts are young and aren't even close to retiring, and finally, about 30+ years from their first solo, a decade in the left seat of 737 at really good wages -$150K+.

After doing one or more of the above for a number of years, 2 will nearly starve to death on Air Canada's new hire pay, finally after 4-8 years becoming an A320 F/0. Can now raise a family if you live in a suburban townhouse and drive old cars. hings slowly improve and in your early 50's you are a widebody F/O making pretty good money. In your late 50's or early 60's the coveted widebody left seat comes through and you will enjoy 5-10 years making over 200K.

I am not trying to be a smartass, these numbers are representative of what I have seen. Do what you love, the money will follow. If you want to fly just for money and lifestyle, you will most likely end up in one of the two early culled 20% categories.

Good luck, and enjoy the journey. If you love flying more than anything else, you will go far.

Sportingrifle

That's actually quite a good break-down...

Good post.

[Colonel Sanders]

Pilots would be a lot happier and better-informed
if they spent the time to take just ONE course in
each of the following:

Economics
Finance
Marketing
Accounting

Remember, you are supposed to be commercial pilots
and hence a little knowledge of commerce (e.g. of your
company, and it's competitors) would not be inappropriate.

As my father used to say, "Play heads-up hockey, son"

Remember, the letters after your name are irrelevant to
everyone except the cows in HR. What matters is what
you know, and what you can do with that knowledge.

[sstaurus]

if you want money, you're in the wrong career

I tried mentioning that. Didn't get much traction.

This advice will not be well-received, but ...

People here will tell you otherwise, but ignorance
and inability is rarely an advantage.

Many people say that here, and no one here would tell you otherwise.

Hats off to 'sportingrifle's post.. Sad but probably true!

[Rowdy]

After doing one or more of the above for a number of years, 2 will nearly starve to death on Air Canada's new hire pay, finally after 4-8 years becoming an A320 F/0. Can now raise a family if you live in a suburban townhouse and drive old cars. hings slowly improve and in your early 50's you are a widebody F/O making pretty good money. In your late 50's or early 60's the coveted widebody left seat comes through and you will enjoy 5-10 years making over 200K.

Good luck, and enjoy the journey. If you love flying more than anything else, you will go far.

Sportingrifle

Your whole post was spot on. My original CPL ground school had 27 people. I am the only one left in aviation.Of a group of around ten in a 704 ground school less than 5 are still in aviation now..

The AC numbers are spot on too. My father was there for 34 years, only the last four were spent as a wide body captain. The first DECADE he was an SO, making ends meet other ways to support our family. It hasn't changed much, other than the attitude in the industry.

And you're right, enjoy the journey, thats truly what it's all about. Like Hedley.. I mean colonel sanders said, if you want money, go do something else!

[Bede]

Col,

I think doctor salaries are much higher in Ontario and Alberta (Quebec brings the numbers down). I was talking to a surgeon friend of mine who made over $500k last year. Some of his orthopedic surgeon friends billed over $1M last year. The down side is ~28 years of school and never seeing their families.

On the other side, lawyers make similar wages as pilots for a lot more work. I'm pretty happy with the work life balance that my job affords.

[Dockjock]

I graduated from an Ontario aviation college in 1999 that accepted 155 students into first year. 3 years later we had 27 graduates in my class. I haven't kept in touch with everyone, but here's are the ones I know.

3 women, 24 men

8 are at Air Canada
7 unknown/lost touch
3 quit flying (1 gave up right away, 1 got knocked up shortly after starting, 1 is a now police detective)
2 at Jazz
1 at WestJet
1 at Emirates
1 at Dragon Air
1 at Cathay Pacific
1 US Navy
1 US regional not sure which
1 went back to school for aerospace engineering

Of the 7 unknown I'd guess that some are still flying, I just don't know where. So that means less than a half dozen who graduated actually ended up quitting flying. Overall not a bad mix.

The ones who were willing to move and be a bit adventurous and flexible ended up being the most successful. Those who wouldn't leave Toronto ended up instructing for a very long time, and paid the price in the speed of their progression to the next step, which ultimately ends up impacting your airline seniority for the rest of your career. If you want to work for an airline, admit that to yourself, set your sights on it, and don't give up. The only way you will achieve your goal is with specific intent. Nobody accidentally becomes an airline pilot, let alone one hired before they're 30, which is what you should be targeting if you want to 1. make decent money before you're old and, 2. be a widebody captain someday. If you already have a C/MIFR and you're only 18, you are well on your way.

[JBI]

This is interesting - from my college class in 2001, a very rough breakdown - some folks is based upon what I heard a couple of years ago, so things may have changed:

Airlines - 6
Regionals - 6
Corporate / Charter - 2
Military - 1
Nav Canada - 3
Further Education (different career) - 3
Not in aviation / no further education -7
Unknown - 4

Most of the folks who made the major airlines had dual citizenship with a country in Asia / Europe and after getting large jet time, are in the middle east.

Of note though, my first stop after college was at an airline up north. First on the ramp, then flying medevacs / charters. Of the group of people that were around the same seniority that I was, almost all of them are now at Air Canada / WestJet / Cathay / Jazz / Porter. I did the further education and took a different route

[Colonel Sanders]

doctor salaries are much higher

Yeah, those were median salaries. With any
kind of non-point distribution, I am sure there were
some people earning much more (and much less).

I'm pretty happy with the work life balance that my job affords

and that (not your paycheque) is what's important,
but the kids always take a while to figure that out
on their own.