Harvard II ejection Moosejaw, Jan 24/14

[iflyforpie]

Both pilots safe!

A military training aircraft crashed about 1:50 p.m. CST Friday, about 15 kilometres south of 15 Wing Moose Jaw.

The two pilots ejected safely.

They were flying a CT 156 Harvard II aircraft, a plane used for training.

Capt. Thomas Edelson, from CFB Moose Jaw, told CBC News that one of the pilots determined it was not safe to land and that a "controlled ejection" was made.

"This is actually a very good outcome," Edelson said. "Both people got out of the plane. You can buy more planes, but you can't buy more people."

Edelson said the plane ended up in a field. The site is being secured as part of the investigation.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatche ... -1.2510345

[PilotDAR]

'Nice to hear pilots are safe.

Just because I know nothing about this aircraft type, what type of event might make a "controlled ejection" desirable? I can imagine a sudden event making the plane unflyable, but if you have time to fly and "control" things, what could make you want to get out?

[SAR_YQQ]

but if you have time to fly and "control" things, what could make you want to get out?

The H2 does not force land very well. The gear is very small. If a PFL back to base is deemed impossible - the election is to get out of the plane. I'm simply hypothesizing in this case, I have no knowledge of what happened and my words should not be taken as fact.

[trampbike]

Also, one of the main gear stuck in the up position while the other is stuck down (preventing a belly landing) could also be an example of a reason to proceed with a controlled ejection. No idea what happened in this case.

[careerpilot?]

One of the pilots was a good buddy of mine, we've trained together since the beginning. I've also flown with the instructor a few times - both great people, and I'm glad they are OK! One is a just a bit banged up, but in great shape considering!

Now that CTV News has broken the story, I can say a bit about what happened - after a touch and go, they had unsafe / ambiguous gear indication and could not confirm the gear was safe for landing. Rather than attempt a belly landing in high winds, they took the Martin-Baker route. With the Mk 16 (about the best bang seat money can buy), I'd call that a good choice. Martin Baker ties and pins for both!

All that info is available on the CTV News video available on their website, and I've confirmed by talking with those involved.

[Rudy]

METAR CYMJ 242000Z 30019KT 15SM FEW030 FEW063 BKN094 BKN240 03/01 A2984 RMK SC1SC2AC3CI1 SLP131=

CYMJ
11L/29R 8,326' 2,538m Asphalt
11R/29L 7,280' 2,219m Asphalt

[fish4life]

What's an mk 16?

[J31]

Glad these folks are ok.

However I have a hard time accepting that they chose to eject, allowing a 5+ million dollar machine to be destroyed all because of a gear problem!? Faster, heavier aircraft than the Harvard II have belly landed just fine. I wonder how their backs feel after that rocket trip out of that aircraft?

I would think an ejection followed by a parachute landing in high winds would be far more risky than a controlled slide down the runway.

[linecrew]

What's an mk 16?

http://www.martin-baker.com/products/ej ... seats/mk16

[trampbike]

However I have a hard time accepting that they chose to eject, allowing a 5+ million dollar machine to be destroyed all because of a gear problem!? Faster, heavier aircraft than the Harvard II have belly landed just fine.

How do you know it could have belly landed? Do you know what the exact gear problem was? Let's say one gear was stuck halfway, then would you still say they could have belly landed "just fine"?

I wonder how their backs feel after that rocket trip out of that aircraft?

I should have asked the instructor that took this decision while out drinking at the mess tonight.

I would think an ejection followed by a parachute landing in high winds would be far more risky than a controlled slide down the runway.

The people who are actually flying the thing and knowing the different factors involved in that decision thought otherwise.

What's an mk 16?

The Martin Baker ejection seat model installed on the Harvard II

[Pop n Fresh]

What altitude would you eject at in this scenario?

[Donald]

Glad these folks are ok.

However I have a hard time accepting that they chose to eject, allowing a 5+ million dollar machine.

According to base commander Col. Paul Goddard in this article http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatche ... -1.2510345, the value is $8-10M.

[trey kule]

Let me see....
Two guys in the plane who were actually aware of the situation to make an informed best decision
Two guys sent up in another plane to evaluate the condition and provide further information.

A dozen av canada arm chair captains speculating without more than what is provided by the media.....priceless. Why dont some of you guys go upstairs and visit with your parents, and leave the tough decisions to those who were there instead of all the second guessing,,,,

"Perfectly fine belly landing".......on what exactly did you base that conclusion on?

When your butt is on the line, the cost of the aircraft is irrelevant...getting you butt safely on the ground is priority one, and it looks like these guys did just that. Now everyone can spend hours armchair quarterbacking a decision these guys had to make in minutes.

[bizjets101]

the value is $8-10M.

Originally they were to cost 4 million, it jumped to 6 million, then 10 million - now their about 14 million for an order of 1 - which considering the Canadian Govt leased them from Bombardier - we now owe them a new airplane - so 14 million plus 10 percent due to loss in value of Canadian Dollar plus taxes.

As for the pilots, Welcome to the Martin-Baker club - excellent outcome, sorry about your plane - but what a great story to tell your Grand Kids .

My buddy bailed out (Late Les Benson) of a F-86 over the English Channel - was picked up after a few hours later by a German fishing boat. The entire time I knew Les, he never mentioned this once - I had to read about it in a book on the F-86 after his passing.

So don't forget to tell the story

[careerpilot?]

The gear was severely damaged (read parts left on the runway) after a touch and go. I don't have all the info yet as to whether it would have been possible to belly land, or if they had an asymmetric gear situation (which gets really nasty if you attempt to land). I won't speculate on their decision making process, but knowing both pilots, neither are a slouch and both are excellent sticks. I know they will probably now be flamed for damaging the aircraft in the first place by people who have no idea what actually happened, but hey, maybe if they had learned on a tailwheel, this wouldn't have happened, right?

Sure larger aircraft have belly landed - but were they equipped with bang seats? Unlikely. I've endured many hours sitting in that uncomfortable thing; yet it's there for a reason. You use it if you have to, it's the safest ejection seat money can buy. Why take chances? If they had attempted to land and cartwheeled out of control, people would be questioning why they didn't use the seat. You just can't win... Aircraft are cheap compared to human lives.

As for altitude, the news report said they ejected at 6000ASL (4000AGL). The seat is capable of 0/0 (0 airspeed, 0 altitude) but the safest parameters to eject are >2000AGL under control, >6000AGL if out of control.

[AuxBatOn]

So, belly land, risk cartwheeling and die (and write the aircraft off either way) or eject safely and write the aircraft off?

I'll take the rocket ride.

[fish4life]

I'd imagine if it were as simple as all 3 gear stuck up they might have elected to belly land but by the sounds of it ejecting out was a good choice. I don't have intimate knowledge of ejections but my impression would be they are not a guaranteed easy safe ride down, it seems like a decision not taken lightly to eject as you risk of injury is still pretty high (I think although maybe these are much better). Glad to hear of a safe outcome for the crew

[Rookie50]

Let me see....
Two guys in the plane who were actually aware of the situation to make an informed best decision
Two guys sent up in another plane to evaluate the condition and provide further information.

A dozen av canada arm chair captains speculating without more than what is provided by the media.....priceless. Why dont some of you guys go upstairs and visit with your parents, and leave the tough decisions to those who were there instead of all the second guessing,,,,

"Perfectly fine belly landing".......on what exactly did you base that conclusion on?

When your butt is on the line, the cost of the aircraft is irrelevant...getting you butt safely on the ground is priority one, and it looks like these guys did just that. Now everyone can spend hours armchair quarterbacking a decision these guys had to make in minutes.

+1. I can't add to that. Amazing how many think otherwise.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Let me see....
Two guys in the plane who were actually aware of the situation to make an informed best decision
Two guys sent up in another plane to evaluate the condition and provide further information.

A dozen av canada arm chair captains speculating without more than what is provided by the media.....priceless. Why dont some of you guys go upstairs and visit with your parents, and leave the tough decisions to those who were there instead of all the second guessing,,,,

"Perfectly fine belly landing".......on what exactly did you base that conclusion on?

When your butt is on the line, the cost of the aircraft is irrelevant...getting you butt safely on the ground is priority one, and it looks like these guys did just that. Now everyone can spend hours armchair quarterbacking a decision these guys had to make in minutes.

+1. I can't add to that. Amazing how many think otherwise.

+ 2. Another " expert " pontificating on something they have no clue about.......

[Changes in Latitudes]

"I wasn't there, I really don't know, I may not be the greatest pilot in the world and I am sure I can learn from this"

Statements you'll never read on this website.

[Colonel Sanders]

The gear was severely damaged (read parts left on the runway) after a touch and go

I would expect $14M airplane to be built a bit
better than that, but I guess with inflation ...

Aircraft are cheap compared to human lives

Not really. Last I heard, the cost of the F-22 had risen
to a third of a billion dollars because the production was
cut short.

What does it cost to train a pilot?

The F-22 is a relative bargain compared to the TWO BILLION
dollar B-2. I'm pretty sure you can train a B-2 pilot for less
than $2B?

[Pop n Fresh]

Certainly I can't help but think, "What? They wrecked that expensive plane." Like everyone else lacking info. But I was somewhat comfortable they had the missing info required for, "Oh. Not much choice in that case."

The problem in my opinion is reporting. They should be able to include more information yet can't. There was an article in the paper about a guy getting pulled over in Nevada and I quote. "For going 15 kilometers over the 100 kilometer per hour posted..." Sorry I'm skeptical about the existence of a metric sign in Nevada. "You know what they meant.." No, but I would have if they just wrote actual facts.

As for altitude, the news report said they ejected at 6000ASL (4000AGL). The seat is capable of 0/0 (0 airspeed, 0 altitude) but the safest parameters to eject are >2000AGL under control, >6000AGL if out of control.

Mostly asked about the height for interest. Wondering how they set up the plane since it was going to be landing unassisted. Maybe it has auto land. Of course with partial gear out...


Even with the likelihood of imagining things fairly incorrect it was a fascinating discussion.

For myself it was comforting to read the gear was damaged doing a touch and go. As for the expense, it's like everything else these days. "$4 for a loaf of bread? Outrageous!"

[Pop n Fresh]

I don't like my word choice. "Comforting" I mean I wondered initially if they were bingo fuel or something only got 2 lights and hit the silk. Again because of the initial report coupled with thinking some weird thing about the captain going down with his ship, just do a belly landing bro, or something equally insane.

If they could have included in the first report, "second plane, damaged gear, partially stuck gear..."

[trampbike]

What does it cost to train a pilot?

Enforcing the law on the roads to increase safety is much more expensive than how much it costs to train drivers...
Do you really think the cost of training is the only thing we should consider when deciding how much saving someone's life is worth?

[Colonel Sanders]

the cost of training is the only thing we should consider

Hey, I'm not the one that brought up the concept
of "cost of aircraft vs pilot" - I am merely discussing
it in a rational manner.

Apart from the cost of training, well, it doesn't really
matter what I think - how about we look at what the
air force thinks it's worth? Specifically, what life insurance
policy does the air force provide to a pilot's family?

Let's say it's a million bucks. Therefore the air force
thinks that the value of a pilot's life, above and beyond
the cost of training, is a million bucks.

From an arithmetic standpoint, a million bucks pales
when we start taking about billions of dollars, correct?

You're too young to remember, but google Ford's thinking
about the cost of a recall to the Pinto to fix the fire hazard
cause by the rear shock aborbers.

Last time I checked, there were 7 billion people on the planet
dirt. I don't think we are approaching a shortage yet.