Harvard II by beechcraft

[Pop n Fresh]

They are owned by Bombardier and leased to the CAF.

No, they are not.

[AuxBatOn]

Yes, they are.

[Pop n Fresh]

Think what you want. Yesterday I believed the first guy claiming that.

[AuxBatOn]

Please enlighten us with your experience and knowledge.

FWIW, I went through the program and know Bombardier instructors and test pilots...

[Pop n Fresh]

I went fishing with my kids in 2012 and I know how to play Gel by collective soul. I'm not sure why you wanted me to enlighten you with my "experience and knowledge."

[amraam]

This site is like a kindergarten class sometimes, I'm not sure why I bother...

According to the RCAF website they are leased by the RCAF, starting in 2000:

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/air ... t-156.page?

amraam

[Pop n Fresh]

Sorry amraam.

Here is a hint. I was just kidding when I wrote this.

I can't read.

Then later on I actually read the information skudrunner posted and learned about milit-air. Before that I actually believed the people that wrote on here. "They are owned by Bombardier." Why would I doubt people on the Internet?

FWIW

[kev994]

He's right. http://www.msc.gov.mb.ca/legal_docs/ord ... tal_2.html

3.6 MILIT-AIR was established as an independent entity to acquire and make available to Bombardier aircraft, flight simulation devices and other ancillary capital assets required for the NFTC Program;
3.11 under a concession and agency agreement (the "Concession and Agency Agreement"), MILIT-AIR granted Bombardier exclusive concession rights to use and occupy the NFTC Premises for the establishment and operation of a military flying training centre for Canadian and foreign military pilots under the NFTC Program;

Appears to be an arrangement similar to that used by many airlines, ie. Air Canada flies an aircraft that may be owned by the Bank of Timbuktu

[Pop n Fresh]

If I understand correctly I could buy some bonds then, I would own those planes.

[trampbike]

Please explain how the creation of a not-for-profit, taxexempt, non-share capital corporation, for the sole purpose of acquiring and making available the assets (read the sims and the aircrafts) to Bombardier, makes it really practically wrong to say that the industrial group led by Bombardier is the owner/responsible of the Harvard II.

[TheCheez]

Please explain how the creation of a not-for-profit, taxexempt, non-share capital corporation, for the sole purpose of acquiring and making available the assets (read the sims and the aircrafts) to Bombardier, makes it really practically wrong to say that the industrial group led by Bombardier is the owner/responsible of the Harvard II.

You are being trolled.

[trampbike]

Yeah... I was still wondering if it was the case or not (see the "what would you do" thread)

[brownbear]

I don't think 6 mill is way off in what they "should" cost. Even if you bought it completely civilian equip list it would be 3 million. With standard avionics. These machines are going to have some serious extra junk in them to simulate combat.

I don't know if they have one, but they might even have ejection seats.

[trampbike]

These machines are going to have some serious extra junk in them to simulate combat.

The Harvard II is not used to simulate combat.

[Pop n Fresh]

I am wondering how much a Harvard II costs. I am interested in other discussion on the Harvard II. I did think they were owned by the government, I did believe the claim bombardier owned them. Now I believe milit-air owns them.

I was joking about not being able to read the link posted by skudrunner because it was a heavier document than I wanted to tackle. After you ( Trampbike) who seems to often make sense called me out accusing me of wanting to vent instead of try to find a somewhat accurate cost on the unit.

If I wanted to vent I would have wrote something closer to, "Boy that's bologna that xxxx happened."

I don't have any particular agenda. I hope to discuss things, particularly the Harvard II in this thread. I find it interesting and slightly amusing that people will have an opinion they think is absolutely correct regardless of the fact that there is a link to a document clearly stating otherwise.

In the end that document could be wrong also. How can I really know.

[trampbike]

I am wondering how much a Harvard II costs. I am interested in other discussion on the Harvard II.

Can't help you more for the cost, feel free to ask other questions about the aircraft.

For your interest, the RCAF doesn't own training aircraft. The Grob, King Air, Harvard II, Hawk, Bell 206 and 412 are all leased.

[kev994]

http://www.bga-aeroweb.com/Defense/T-6-Texan.html

Everything you want to know about Tex2 including what 'merica is paying for them. Looks to be about 7 mil in 2012

[Posthumane]

The Harvard II/Texan II is based on the Pilatus PC-9, which is also priced at $4-6M per unit cost. The actual producion costs vary significantly from one production run to another for a variety of reasons - not just for aircraft but for all larger capital purchases. The size of a production run can affect the price greatly, which is why Canada often tries to piggyback onto existing US orders to save money, though that doens't always work if the cash phasing doesn't line up or there are enough modifications required to differenciate the two production runs.

So, I'm curious, how much would you expect an aircraft like that to cost? It is a high performance aircraft with PT6A power, aerobatics capable, on board oxygen generators, ejection seats, anti-G system, ant-ice, a large avionics suite, etc. You can compare it to something like a Pilatus PC-12. The 12 is obviously larger, but it has a lower top speed, lower service ceiling (same powerplant, after all), lower G-limits, less impact resistance, and also cost upwards of $4M.

[kev994]

There is no anti-ice on Harvard II unless you count prop boots. Also, this is not your run of the mill PT6, 1100 HP is not quite accurate, it is flat rated to 1100 HP meaning the computer keeps it at that as the aircraft climbs, IIRC it is actually rated for 1600 HP and doesn't start to dip below 1100 until ~15000 ft.

[TheCheez]

I am wondering how much a Harvard II costs. I am interested in other discussion on the Harvard II. I did think they were owned by the government, I did believe the claim bombardier owned them. Now I believe milit-air owns them.

Iirc MILIT-AIR was created to comply with US rules about exporting military equipment to foreign civilian companies. DND didn't want to own the planes, Bombardier wasn't allowed to own the planes, so MILIT-AIR was formed. In practical and very simple terms, since I'm a pilot and not a contract lawyer, Bombardier is responsible for the planes and we pay for use.

[trampbike]

2 big differences between the PC-9 and the Harvard II is that the later has a PMU (Power Management Unit) and is pressurized.

[Pop n Fresh]

http://www.bga-aeroweb.com/Defense/T-6-Texan.html

Everything you want to know about Tex2 including what 'merica is paying for them. Looks to be about 7 mil in 2012

That's a pretty good link. They have some space stuff on there too.

Not today but I would like to read a bit about the power management unit later.

[skymarc]

Are you saying they have FADEC on that PT6?
Never heard of a PT6 with electronic controller.
Those Hrv2 /T6 are cool but not worth more than a TBM at $3.5m.

There is no anti-ice on Harvard II unless you count prop boots. Also, this is not your run of the mill PT6, 1100 HP is not quite accurate, it is flat rated to 1100 HP meaning the computer keeps it at that as the aircraft climbs, IIRC it is actually rated for 1600 HP and doesn't start to dip below 1100 until ~15000 ft.

[trampbike]

Never heard of a PT6 with electronic controller.

Yep, the Harvard II has a computer (we called it the Power Management Unit) that does all the good stuff for us: auto-start, auto-abort, smoothing of power changes, etc. Remember this is a BASIC training aircraft for the military. Some guys will solo on it with less than 40h TT. They have to make it easy for us. Also, it gives a more "jet engine" feel, which is what they want.

[Pop n Fresh]

How well does it simulate the jets?