Thunder Air job

[TCAS II]

[Crusty]

Working hard and being professional has absolutely no correlation with success in this industry.

It's a good policy, but if you believe 100% that you will be rewarded for your hard work you're in for a big surprise.

[iflyforpie]

Ramp jobs are just a source of cheap and plentiful labour. If they weren't, they'd just hire labourers who would stick around longer, work more efficiently year after year, and save them training costs.

[FL767]

Well folks, maybe things have changed in the last few decades, but theres essentially 3 ways to start a aviation career in Canada in 2014;

A) Go to college get good grades, kiss a little ass and get into a Jazz/Georgian type program

B) Become a 200 hr flight instructor and live out a top-gun fantasy

C) Get into a respectable ground position at a solid company like Thunder Air, wait a few short months and start on a multi-turbine

Which would you prefer?

[trey kule]

Let me see...
You defined the conditions, gave us a choice between being an ass kisser, a fantasy top gun pilot.....or, your preferred choice.

I take it you were not one of those who got good grades at a flight colege

There is another choice. Finish training and get a job as a pilot! What a radical idea eh?

The only thing that has changed is, as someone already posted, there seems to be the belief that a CPL does not qualify you to actually look for work as a pilot. Why cant you do that? Well because you and others like you are willing to whore yourself out on the ground ...if you did not do this, maybe, just maybe, pilots would be directly hired as pilots.

Solid company. You mean one that has enough of a turnover from pilots just walking out the door that they need to keep a supply of pilots handy to replace them? Or do you need to be a pilot to be able to do general labourer work at one of these solid companies.


Your 250 hours of experience and flying skills are no doubt being enhanced by working as a ramp

[Optimus Primer]

Well folks, maybe things have changed in the last few decades, but theres essentially 3 ways to start a aviation career in Canada in 2014;

A) Go to college get good grades, kiss a little ass and get into a Jazz/Georgian type program

B) Become a 200 hr flight instructor and live out a top-gun fantasy

C) Get into a respectable ground position at a solid company like Thunder Air, wait a few short months and start on a multi-turbine

Which would you prefer?

I kissed so much ass and yet, I became a 200 hour Maverick living out the aforementioned not-so-subtle homosexual fantasy. I guess I should have aspired for chasing a carrot on a stick for "a few short months" so I can live off FO wages for the next 5 years of my life.

[bobm]

Actually, the program has worked quite well I believe. Lower time pilots have had the opportunity to work in the industry, make a decent wage (better than instructing I believe) and most importantly, learn the business. They do go on to fly. And you know what? Our pilots that have been through the “program” know the business, what is required of them, are “on time”, their paper work is impeccable, they know how to deal with clients and they get along with their peers. And yes, they do advance fairly quickly.

It seems like a win-win for everyone.

[FL767]

All good points;

Teeg, what do Dispatchers make a month (on average) at TA?

Some one else; what is the going monthly pay for an 'average' new class 4 flight instructor?

[Duffman]

Well folks, maybe things have changed in the last few decades, but theres essentially 3 ways to start a aviation career in Canada in 2014;

A) Go to college get good grades, kiss a little ass and get into a Jazz/Georgian type program

B) Become a 200 hr flight instructor and live out a top-gun fantasy

C) Get into a respectable ground position at a solid company like Thunder Air, wait a few short months and start on a multi-turbine

Which would you prefer?

I trained at an FTU, got my CPL, applied for jobs, got hired on a 185 on floats, flew around 250 hours that season and they put me on the beaver the next season. I had no connections in aviation, I just applied for work like anyone else would do.

This was 3 years ago.

[amclean]

I admit it was a few years ago, but I averaged about $1000 per month as a class 4 instructor. Thunder's Customer Service Specialists make almost as much per hour as I was paid per Hobbs hour.

As for getting a flying job rather than the CSS job, if you can find one, by all means go for it! Give us a shout when you've got close to 500 mpic...

I found their F/O ad a little naïve...

Unless you're from T. Bay - and even then - why would anyone
with 500MPIC commit to two years there? Last I checked it was
2014.

I honestly hope that nobody with this sort of experience applies
for this position.

What does the year have to do with committing to work for a company? 2 years is not a long time in the grand scheme of things, and I guarantee you will learn a lot working here in that time! Some people choose to work here long past their contract, and as you may see from the payscale that bobm posted, they are rewarded for their dedication.
YQT is not a bad city - I have made it my home for the last 7 years, and I can afford to live and raise a family here. Many of our pilots choose to take advantage of our travel benefits to go someplace else on their time off -- last I checked there are 12 flights a day back to the centre of the universe from YQT, and almost as many from our other base in YTS.
Should you decide to leave before your contract is up, nobody is going to hold a gun to your head and tell you to stay; on the contrary, many of our pilots have been interviewed at the majors, and been supported by letters of recommendation from the chief pilot. All that we ask is that you keep management in the loop if you've been called for an interview, and if you decide to leave before your contract is up, have the respect to honour your commitment to repay the (prorated) cost of your training.

You can get hired/upgraded to a Capt position without this requirement.

You can, or you can't?

You cannot be a captain on an ornge flight or Ontario government charter, unless you meet the requirements (2000tt, 500 mpic, etc). Our scheduled flights, and many other charters do not have those restrictions, so those hired without 500 mpic (i.e. those hired under the ground to flight line program) can build their multi pic time while doing these flights. We would prefer that everyone that is hired already has this time, hence the job ad looking for 1500 tt and 500 mpic.

common people

So royalty aren't allowed to apply?

Ok, I actually laughed at that! To my knowledge, we have never had royalty apply for either a flying or ground position (although we do get occasional emails from a Nigerian prince with some money burning in his pocket, if we just transfer some money to him first.....), but we do not specifically exclude them from consideration.

[Brown Bear]

Well folks,

B) Become a 200 hr flight instructor and live out a top-gun fantasy
?

The last two guys we hired (nice King Air gig. No bonds) were flight instructors. They can fly my ass off, and I'm way over the 20000 hour mark. We don't do ramps, and we don't do American Express.
I hope you're happy on the ramp there in YQT. It's a nice town and the Thunder guys are a good bunch. Personally, I'm a wee bit disappointed they're going this route. They don't have to. Now, if they'd just loose the stupid white shirt and tie......

[Diadem]

There is another choice. Finish training and get a job as a pilot! What a radical idea eh?

Let me tell you a story. When I was working on my flight training, I worked as a rampie for a cargo company to pay my bills. There was absolutely zero chance whatsoever that I would ever get a flying position with this company, so I did it purely as a source of income. I liked being around airplanes, and it paid better than working in fast food or retail, so it seemed like a good choice for me. Does anyone oppose a pilot-in-training from working as a rampie?
When I finished my licence, I thought "I'm a pilot, and I'm going to find work as a pilot", so I quit my job and set out to find work in my chosen profession. I sent resumes to every company in Canada that would hire pilots with less than 1000 hours, and I personally went to a good number of them. After six months of unemployment, I realized that there were no jobs available, whatsoever, and that walking into a cockpit wasn't going to happen; even getting a ramp job that would lead to a flying position was pretty much impossible. Needing to buy groceries and have accommodations, I found a job working on the ground for a local airline. Again, it was around airplanes, and it paid better than the alternatives. During the interview I was told explicitly that the position wouldn't lead to a flying job, and that if, at some point in the future, they ever needed pilots, I could apply and be considered along with everyone else, but that I wasn't guaranteed anything just from working there. That seemed reasonable, and I took the job without expecting it to ever lead to anything else. Does anyone have a problem with a pilot working in a non-flying position that is guaranteed not to lead to a flying job?
While I was working there, I continued to send out resumes, and I finally got an interview with a charter company. They didn't have any jobs available for pilots at the time, but they had an opening on the ground. Whenever a pilot left, I would be considered alongside all the other applicants, and the best person would be hired to fly based on experience and personality. Since I didn't have any offers coming that would put me directly into a cockpit, and since my current position was a dead-end, and since I needed a job of some kind (plus the charter company offered more than money than I was making at the time), I couldn't see any down-side to accepting the offer. If, after a few months or a year, they had an opening in a pilot position, and I'd gotten to know the operation, the management, and the various manuals, I would be in a much better position to get the job than someone who might even have more hours than me, but might not be punctual or reliable. I would be a known entity against several unknowns. Does anyone have a problem with this scenario?
Sometimes there simply aren't jobs of any kind available, and particularly not those that put the pilot directly into a cockpit. Not everyone has an uncle who owns an air taxi company, or a parent who works for AC. Not everyone can live off of mommy and daddy, renting planes until they get enough hours to get a flying job, and not everyone has a second career that pays well enough to own one's own airplane. There have even been times when pilots were in demand, and it was possible to start flying right out of flight school, but there hasn't been a time like that in a decade. I spent every penny I had, plus lots more, training for the only profession that I ever wanted to do, and when I graduated there wasn't a single job for a low-time pilot in Canada. It's pretty easy to prevaricate about pilots only working as pilots, but when it comes down to working a ramp position or giving up on flying altogether, or even not having enough money to buy ramen, I doubt you'd be taking such a noble stand about pilots only working as pilots. If a company only hires low-timers to work ground positions for a specific period of time, even when flying positions are available, that's pretty scummy, but I'll never fault a low-timer for taking a job that isn't the absolute ideal. Why aren't the "Pilots should only work as pilots" crowd getting upset about English majors working in Starbucks? They should hold out until they're offered a teaching position, and Starbucks should be ashamed for hiring them!

[ahramin]

Diadem, there's a big problem with your example: the pay. If the highest paying job available is a ramp job, then obviously that's a good move. In my experience though pilots working ramp jobs that lead to flying positions could always be making more money working some other job while trying to find a flying job. The ramp jobs are underpaid because they are taking advantage of a young pilot's desperation.

I know there are a lot of people out there who consider taking advantage of people in desperate or difficult circumstances as simply good business sense. I disagree.

[MIQ]

I worked the ramp a few years ago, before I started my training, for a major airline in Europe. Did that for a year before I moved to Canada. Can I tell all these companies now that I already worked the ramp, 'know how aviation works' and can get into the right seat right away? I mean, I can get to know any specific company in the cockpit quite as well as on the ground. So that can't be an argument anymore. I should maybe put that on my resume...

[Gorgons]

Heard JV was laying off, apparently fairly senior guys. Rumour floating out there that they want people to move from YWG & YQT to YXL again to start running 100"s on some type of scheduled service. Speculation is that the 100's are coming from Baby Bear and they are going to start running service onto the gravel again north of YRL and YXL. Any chance the pilot pool to fill the right seats might also be coming from Baby Bear?

[Brown Bear]

Had heard something about the Bear looking at getting back into reserve type scheduled flights. That'd have me sending out feelers if I worked for the Bear.
Brand W is having some $$$$ woes...
Enlighten me....who is Baby Bear?

[Gorgons]

Thunder Airlines... The worst kept secret in NWO aviation, the money behind that operation was/is? Freisen money. Thunder entered service right around the same time JV's union started to become discussion, As I heard it Thunder Airlines was the back-up plan to crush the union. Selling "the routes" to Wasaya for 20+ million turned out to be a better way to go, Thunder stayed in business but they got out of the cargo business, sold the Shorts and Wasaya took over the building and property in YPL. Adding to the JV pilot news heard Carl is might not be part of the JV team anymore. Anybody know for sure?

[Brown Bear]

Thunder Airlines... The worst kept secret in NWO aviation, the money behind that operation was/is? Freisen money. Thunder entered service right around the same time JV's union started to become discussion, As I heard it Thunder Airlines was the back-up plan to crush the union. Selling "the routes" to Wasaya for 20+ million turned out to be a better way to go, Thunder stayed in business but they got out of the cargo business, sold the Shorts and Wasaya took over the building and property in YPL. Adding to the JV pilot news heard Carl is might not be part of the JV team anymore. Anybody know for sure?

I knew all this. Thought there might be more skulduggery afoot.

[FL767]

[quote="Diadem] After six months of unemployment, I realized that there were no jobs available, whatsoever, and that walking into a cockpit wasn't going to happen; even getting a ramp job that would lead to a flying position was pretty much impossible. Needing to buy groceries and have accommodations, I found a job working on the ground for a local airline. Again, it was around airplanes, and it paid better than the alternatives. During the interview I was told explicitly that the position wouldn't lead to a flying job, and that if, at some point in the future, they ever needed pilots, I could apply and be considered along with everyone else, but that I wasn't guaranteed anything just from working there. That seemed reasonable, and I took the job without expecting it to ever lead to anything else. Does anyone have a problem with a pilot working in a non-flying position that is guaranteed not to lead to a flying job?[/quote]


Very well written post Diadem, sounds like you had a rough go starting out! You pin pointed another huge benefit of ramp-flying programs, it deals with the HUGE volume of CPL's this country produces, by allowing them to work in the Aviation industry rather than at places like Staples/Starbrucks while they wait to fly. If you can find a direct entry flying job - go for it! However an overwhelming majority of new CPL's will have to do road trips or wait months or years before they can get into a cockpit. A new CPL pilot that gets into a respectable ramp-flying program (Like Thunder Air) right away are among the lucky ones.

The only ramp's to avoid that I am aware of are, Buffalo and Transwest. Airsprint, NCA, Sunwest, Air Tindi, Perimeter ect... all places to go.

Thunder Air pays dispatch personnel per hour, what a class 4 flight instructor makes per Hobbs hour? Direct entry pilot crowd... Who is selling their souls cheap, you tell me?

[Ki-ll]

Thunder Air pays dispatch personnel per hour, what a class 4 flight instructor makes per Hobbs hour? Direct entry pilot crowd... Who is selling their souls cheap, you tell me?

I made 30$ per hobbs hour in 2009-2010 (Class IV), I very much doubt that a dispatcher at Thunder makes anywhere close to that. Do what you are comfortable doing (ramp or flying) but don't sell one or the other method as panacea.

[esp803]

30$ per hobbs hour

So if you are flying the legal limit, that gives you about 36k per year? That's 17 an hour at a Monday-Friday nine to five. Assuming you are flying 1200hours per year, which would be exhausting. I seem to consistently average a more manageable 700 hours a year, which would be 21k/yr, which is down around the 10 an hour mark for a 40 hour work week. To be honest, I haven't read the job ad, I'd like to think it pays more than 10 an hour.

I've never worked the ramp as a rampie, but I've always loaded my own airplane, fueled my own airplane, towed my own airplane and washed my own airplane. I've always been compensated fairly for doing this. I'm not a fan of bonds and I'm not a fan of the wait to fly method used by many companies, that being said, I
generally hear nothing but good things about Thunder.

E

[X-Savior]

Ok after reading some extremely un-educated, arrogant and rather tasteless comments here I feel I need to put my two cents in (Actually more like a handful of pocket change).

I was working for Thunder until very recently where I had an opportunity to move up and on to Fly Corporate...like many other Thunder pilots in the past (705 or Corporate). I am going to share my experience with you so the record can be set straight for people considering working for Thunder.

1) Thunder is an incredible company to work for. Your experience with the company will be directly linked to YOUR motivation and drive to succeed. The company is an EXTREMELY well run company (in fact one if the best I have ever seen). If you are a person who feels you are entitled to everything and are too good to do anything but wait for something to land in your lap then do not bother applying because you will not be a good fit with the team.

2) All employees are treated with respect and dignity. Unlike other companies there is no back stabbing, BS or Drama/Politics. Everyone there is there to work and I NEVER met a single person who did not enjoy their job. For flight crew you come in to fly and go home when you are done (you may come in on the odd Saturday to wash a plane but not a big deal and is done among friends and you usually learn a few things while you are at it)

3) Thunder is Bearskins sister company. So the training and day to day operations is on par with our brothers at Bearskin... (Some of the Best around). Their training department is A+++ (Unlike other operators who might need a reality check... Don't like to point fingers or name names... GG...)

4) Thunder has ALWAYS been one to help pilots up and along in their careers. They are a stepping stone company like most all in NWO but unlike some others if you decide to stay it WILL be worth your time as it us above average pay. In fact this brings up another point... Thunder does not hide their wages unlike most operators. In fact it is all open knowledge and freely available. I can count on one hand how many companies in Canada will tell you this. I have been to interviews where they STILL will not give you an exact number.

5) The work is exciting. NWO is quite the place to operate and might be one if the top places for QUALITY experience in Canada. I have many friends in the industry who are like many who make the usual runs to the 6-7 same airports over and over. At Thunder due to the nature of the work and the Government contracts last time I checked I frequently went to 34 airports in NWO alone...

6) Thunder is HIGHLY respected by 705 operators if this is your desired career path (For whatever reason that I can not figure out). In January we had 3 Captains alone go to Porter with a few more soon). Before that we had a few go to Jazz, Air Canada and Westjet Mainline. Recently the 705 have even been hiring some of the FO's due to the outstanding work ethic and superior flying skills of our crews.

7) I do not think it is a coincidence that some of our Captains have 20000-30000 hours of experience and are still very happy at Thunder. For those FO's coming on board it is an opportunity of a lifetime to be able to learn from these Captains as they they take pride in taking you under their wing and actually MENTORING you to be a better pilot (not just a piece of meat filling a seat).

8 ) This Dispatch position is now being filled because the previous dispatcher was moved up to the Flightline (well under a year). Again you write your own advancement ticket by demonstrating your work ethic and motivation to succeed. In fact this position rarely comes available and only a candidate who would make a good fit on the Flightline will get the job. This is an opportunity for some entry level pilots to get their careers started. As some have mentioned you can go instruct or dispatch or sit on you ass and wait for a job to come to you. There is no shortage of 200 hour pilots and I am going to be honest... There sure as hell is no difference between a 200 hour pilot and a 500 hour pilot... Both are rookie fledglings looking for a real start to their careers.... Just enough experience to be dangerous and cocky. Thunder opens a door for people who are self motivated to give them an opportunity to start their careers in a fantastic and supportive environment. The Dispatch team at Thunder are an amazing hard working bunch who really do care about what they do. They are just as valuable members of the team as Flight Crew and Maint.

9) they are NOT hiring rampies. They have dedicated non pilot staff who really enjoy that position and those jobs come open even less then fight crews.

10) Most of the Pilots are Direct Entry FO's and will usually make Capt within a year. There is a huge stack of Resumes at all times so only the best candidates are selected.

11) There is a reason Thunder does most of the Government work in NWO... They fly by the book without exception and always are professional (Unlike some other operators in the region.. Nak...).

Professionalism is a cornerstone to operations at Thunder (So the Pilots do wear their uniform with pride)... I do not understand why some people bitch about wearing uniforms... Seriously... You want to call yourself a Professional Pilot but wearing a uniform is asking too much??? I am sure if you tell a 705 you think wearing a uniform sucks they still might be interested in you? You might be better suited back on the docks...

12) Flight Benefits. Currently there is Benefits with Bearskin, Porter and Jazz. Most flight crew live all over Canada and commute using flight Benefits. The Schedule is a good rotation and is very predictable with the ability to trade shifts as long as there is coverage. We have had pilots live as far away as Vancouver and Moncton.

13) make your own choice. Thunder is a fantastic opportunity for anyone and I will always be thankful for the rest of my career for my experience there and everything I learned. They really are a top notch employer!

[spaner]

Thanks for that X,

That took some time and effort to post up. A break in the insanity of avcanada. Probly the best 703 operator in Canada, not to mention Ontario, and the retards of the lazeeboyz are just bashing away...

Stay at home and "be the king", and bash the best operator out there. WTF...WTF

Nothing but opportunity and reward for those willing to put in the effort.
Not to mention recession proof employment on turbine types, at great pay; forever...


What's wrong with these people?

[trey kule]

There is only one right opinion....yours! And if we disagree there must be something wrong with us? Did I pretty much get your meaning correctly.?

So, to clarify ,before the rant. I am not sitting in any chair bitching and bemoaning my situation. I am at the end of career where I want to be. In fact, someone will be taking my spot. In less than a year.
And the anecdotal posts are interesting, but I question how representative of the overall situation. We do love stories though. More than facts.

So let me get to rant and walk you through it. If no pilots accepted jobs unless it resulted in them actually flying a plane, and there were no ramp whores sitting in the wings, so to speak, pilots would be hired direct into the cockpit. Thunder Air is just another company taking advantage of the "if I dont take it, there is 50 guys behind me who will" Philosophy. So they keep a nice ready stream of pilots available...and of course they insure you stay current while working the ramp....oh wait....do they do that? Or are your fully ingrained flight skills getting sharper with all that company indoctrination.

Now the situation where someone needs a job and works around airplanes without any carrot being dangled in front of them is much different. It was a bit sad to see some posters cant make that distinction.

FWIW, there has been advice posted here by several very experienced posters who hold or have held senior management positions in their respective companies. Their advice and perspective in many instances is much different than some of the personal motivational posts.

Companies that hire pilots as rampies and dangle the carrot in front of them, are, in my opinion contemptible. And i have no dog in the fight. They generally think so much of you after you work on the ramp for them, that they need to have you sign a bond when they move you up to the flightline...definitely they appreciate the hard work and loyalty.

I know that young ones will believe what they most want to believe , and it is so hard to compete with the motivational ' there I was' posts. It is to bad that many dont see the picture , not from one or two posters, but from those who have seen hundreds and hundreds of pilots go through the system.

If you are a pilot you should be hired to fly. The reason companies can get away with having you work the ramp is because of your fellow pilots. The companies are simply taking advantage of the situation, and feeding you the kool aid, that a year...or two...on the ramp will make you a better pilot.
.

[spaner]

Nothing there that I don't agree with.

The distinction that should be made though, is that the whole concept of "how things should be" in the industry, and "how they actually are" is the difference between fantasy and reality.

I don't disagree with having differing opinions about how to affect change in the industry. (wishes-use magic wand here) By all means.
I take exception to the bashing of a real company, offering a real job, for a real person.

A good position for someone that can see clear, through the haze of banter