Training rich students

[Bede]

I am looking for some advice from high time instructors. What extra things do you cover when training students with a lot of money? Here's why I ask:

Recently a lawyer with a PPL contacted me. He had recently bought a pressurized piston twin and he wants me to do his multi IFR. It's probably one of the nicest airplanes of it's type on the market (full EFIS retrofit, radar, full deice, XM weather, engine performance STC's, etc.) He's planning to fly SP-IFR to travel between cities for meetings. I have no problem doing the rating, and he's a smart guy, he'll have no problem getting through it. The aircraft is very capable and has no problem getting on top of most weather and down into the worst crap on the other end.

Other than the obvious stuff (emphasis on PDM, talking about all the things that can go wrong, ensuring hand flying abilities are present, etc.) does any one have any more suggestions to make sure this guy will be safe when he's done?

[Colonel Sanders]

Sure. Have him pay you to ride along in the
right seat, AFTER he gets his paper, until he
gets some experience.

A lot of rich guys would be alive if they had
listened to this advice.

What will make the difference as to whether
he lives or dies is not how well he can keep
a needle centrered during an approach.

What will make the difference is his attitude,
and his willingness to say, "NO" to a trip before
he even takes off.

This is sorely lacking amongst type-A personalities
who are successful in other walks of life. And
this is why they die in airplanes. They bite off
far more than they can chew, when it comes to
wx and the capabilities of their airplane.

You can't teach brains. This guy will either kill
himself, or he won't.

[davecessna]

It sounds like you know what you are doing. I cannot speak from experience from either party, but I wouldn't treat him any differently than any other student.

[Colonel Sanders]

Have your rich guy read this:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief ... 115&akey=1

An investment banker in a TBM-700 killed
five people. Gotta love that "moderate icing"

An Airmen’s Meteorological Information (AIRMET) advisory, “ZULU,” was issued at 0945 that included the area of the accident site. The AIRMET advised of moderate icing between the freezing level (identified as located between 2,000 feet and 8,000 feet) and FL200.

Really capable airplane. Really smart guy.

Five dead.

[Bede]

Col.

Good advice. I don't do ride alongs. I barely have enough time to do instruction let alone babysitting. I just instruct because I like it. Babysitting, not so much.

I think what I may do is send a relevant accident report to him before each lesson and we'll discuss and analyze it during the briefing. Actually, now that I think of it, I may start doing that with a lot more students. What happened? Why did it happen? What would you have done differently?

[Colonel Sanders]

Case study is an excellent instructional technique.

B-schools "get it":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_s ... se_studies

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-imp ... 013-7?op=1

One of the core teaching methods, pioneered by Harvard Business School, is the case method. Some of the most difficult situations in business history are laid out for students, and they're expected to come up with a rigorous and well reasoned solution all on their own. It's the tried and true way to train students expected to be the top executives of the future

[Colonel Sanders]

Babysitting, not so much

You might not be able to ride along, but
you might be able to informally dispatch.

I do that all the time. Someone inexperienced
wants to fly somewhere, we look at the wx and
terrain and discuss the flight and the all-important
go/no-go decision.

This kind of mentoring can be really helpful.


Technology takes this to a higher level, from strategic
to tactical.

A while back, an inexperienced pilot was flying across
the prairies and had 'way too much headwind and
texted me inflight that he needed to find an
alternate to refuel. Couldn't make his destination
with comfortable reserve.

Good headwork, but time for some other ideas
first.

Drop to 1000 feet, I says. Hey! He says, that's
better.

500 feet, I say. Better yet, he says.

Ok, now drop down and draft the 18 wheelers on
the trans-canada highway. Don't hit anything, I say.


I dispatched a guy in a AD-1 across the North Atlantic
once, which was completely insane, but I did the best
I could to help him.

[ahramin]

I make sure these types of clients know that I'm available to answer questions once they are flying on their own and encourage them to call me before a flight if there's anything in the weather package they haven't seen before. You don't want them to rely on you as you aren't always available but hopefully it will get them used to second guessing their solutions.

Pushing accident reports is very effective with most people. Almost as effective as having them crash the sim a few times. Encourage them to get some sim training at least initially.

Like CS said though, if you do your job properly, he will either kill himself or he won't. I had a redneck client with a Baron who stopped calling me the day he got his paper. Everyone said you can't fly a Baron with so little experience and you won't get insurance and he's going to kill his whole family. I had no doubts about his attitude though and got him the insurance and seven years later he hasn't had a single incident. I have another very very smart client with more time than I do that I worry about every week. He's just too used to being the smartest guy in the room.

By the way the accident reports shouldn't stop when the paper is in hand. Anytime I run across a report that would apply to one of my clients I send it to them.

[Colonel Sanders]

re: case study & accident reports ...

It may seem a bit ghoulish to review accidents,
but every year I have to renew my SAC and part
of the ground portion is accidents/causes.

There are no new causes of aircraft accidents.
Every year, the same old stuff happens.

The value of experience is that you start to get
that old, bad feeling when you encounter a situation
which might at first look benign but you know is
extremely dangerous, and can sucker you in.

You can get a real head-start on experience if you
spend a little time and review famous accidents,
and pre-learn your lessons from them.

For example, talk to me about lessons learned from:

- Buddy Holly & Richie Valens
- Jim Croce
- JFK, jr

This year, in 2014, pilots will die - again - because
they didn't learn the lesson from the above.

[Shiny Side Up]

For example, talk to me about lessons learned from:

- Buddy Holly & Richie Valens

Small foot note of history. Buddy Holly's Pilot, Patsy Cline's pilot, and Jim Reeves (singer/pilot) all learned from the same flight instructor.

I think Bede has it figured out, but I think the hardest thing that many instructors have when dealing with wealthy and lucrative clients is how to say no. I know of three instructors who didn't know how, two are lucky to be on this side of the turf, one isn't. Stick to your own rules, don't matter how much money is involved. No load of cash brings you back.

[trey kule]

The thing I notice here is CS and some others are very experienced in their own right.

Wealthy people with nice toys will utilize them. Experienced pilots who instruct have the knowlege and experience to teach.
Unfortunately,mI have witnessed , more than a few times, some young instructor who is quite frankly over their own head, trying to teach someone and give advice. Type -A s quickly learn to ignore that advice.

So..first thing..unless you personally, as an instructor have time in the type of aircraft, and lots of non FTu time, do these people a favour...refer them to an instructor who has experience at their planned level of flying.
These guys are not going to be day VFR. They need to know how to properly operate systems like radar and de ice, anti ice, pressurization..you get the idea. Trying to teach someone to interpret radar when you have no experience doing it yourself is a recipe for poor instruction.

The attitude thing is valid, in my opinion. And currency.

[Shiny Side Up]

Unfortunately,mI have witnessed , more than a few times, some young instructor who is quite frankly over their own head, trying to teach someone and give advice. Type -A s quickly learn to ignore that advice.

I find all too often the student will simply seek out someone who will bend to their wishes. Where there's a will there's away. Often such instructors who do get rave reviews and are "really good pilots" for making it work. Sometimes it catches them. Once upon a time someone wanted me to do a mountain trip with him. He was in a rush, had limited time, and the weather frankly was the shits. He found someone braver than me, they're both dead now. Lots of times they get away with it, but you get that feeling its just a matter of time.

Over the years I've had clients who thought a few extra bucks could bend things in their favour. I've been asked to:

1) Overload aircraft.
2) Press limits of fuel.
3) Push bad weather.
4) Falsify logs, records, PTRs, license applications.
5) Fly junk.

The worst part is the insultingly low price that often gets offered. Obviously for some, their price is pretty low.

edit: I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that you can't really do anything about them being safe once they've left your care. I feel its more important to keep yourself safe, and hope that rubs off on them. don't count on it though.

[PilotDAR]

For the OP, and others in the same situation, there is a lot of very good advice here. You can't always draw the line precisely, but there is a line somewhere, where yes, the "rich" owner does have to be treated differently from the regular candidate pilot. I am not an instructor, but I sure have flown many flights as the babysitter, in fancy Cessna floatplanes and amphibs. I have seen exactly the A type personality which CS correctly describes (so I won't repeat all of that, but he's right). The added aspect is that they have the money to fix it, and often self insure. The problem is they can pay to fix metal, but if they're bending metal, they're close to bending themselves, and worse, passengers.

When I learned to fly, I did not have an extra cent, so I really tried to no bend things, and risk costing myself money. I have noticed that rich pilots don't seem to be similarly afraid, so they are more easily tempted into foolish behavior.

Treat them differently, and present demonstrations or case studies of careless flying, or pilots getting too far in. Teach this to us poor pilots too, but know that to an extent, they already get it.

When you're in the clag, or floating upside down in a remote lake, waving cash around is useless.....

[MIQ]

I think what I may do is send a relevant accident report to him before each lesson and we'll discuss and analyze it during the briefing. Actually, now that I think of it, I may start doing that with a lot more students. What happened? Why did it happen? What would you have done differently?

Start with the Keystone accident in North Spirit Lake. I think there's a lot to learn from in terms of single pilot IFR operations. At least I for myself think I learned quite a bit from that occurrence.

[B52]

I recall one light twin owner who wanted ito learn to fly from zero in the twin and solo in the the twin.
It was some of the most unpleasant "training" that I've ever done and I had to put a stop to it.

The one key factor was he would not listen to the advice of learning in a 172 first and
he was going to make other decisions for which he did not have the experience or
otherwise incredible natural ability that I could not see exist which I think is what
many rich owners want an instructor to tell them and with well, incredible instruction some
do make very good pilots but, its a breeding ground for fatalities that I would never again
be suckered or pressured into by an employer or rich owner willing to pay very well.
It's not worth it.

[Pop n Fresh]

Over the years I've had clients who thought a few extra bucks could bend things in their favour. The worst part is the insultingly low price that often gets offered. Obviously for some, their price is pretty low.

But you saw me empty all my pockets, 9 bucks and a guitar pick was all I had.

[Shiny Side Up]

It was only seven dollars and forty eight cents, and that guitar pick wasn't Alex Lifeson's.

[Rookie50]

I think what I may do is send a relevant accident report to him before each lesson and we'll discuss and analyze it during the briefing. Actually, now that I think of it, I may start doing that with a lot more students. What happened? Why did it happen? What would you have done differently?

Start with the Keystone accident in North Spirit Lake. I think there's a lot to learn from in terms of single pilot IFR operations. At least I for myself think I learned quite a bit from that occurrence.

I read tons of accident reports, whenever I find them, especially GA SP IFR. (since I actively do this). Learned so much about human factors and PDM, and I think these should be required reading for all students.

[pelmet]

Have your rich guy read this:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief ... 115&akey=1

An investment banker in a TBM-700 killed
five people. Gotta love that "moderate icing"

An Airmen’s Meteorological Information (AIRMET) advisory, “ZULU,” was issued at 0945 that included the area of the accident site. The AIRMET advised of moderate icing between the freezing level (identified as located between 2,000 feet and 8,000 feet) and FL200.

Really capable airplane. Really smart guy.

Five dead.

Actually, it was a nice day at the surface and he didn't enter IMC until over 12,000 feet. Pretty tempting to takeoff. But, once you start really picking up the ice all you have to do in that situation is descend. He tried to outclimb it and stalled. I probably would have taken off. There were definitely options.

[Colonel Sanders]

all you have to do in that situation is descend

He did that, eventually.

I would have done many things differently
than this guy. But he's probably a much
nicer fellow than I am. ATC probably likes
him a lot more than they like me, for example.

[Shiny Side Up]

Sometimes when dealing with these kinds of guys, especially when you're reasonably certain they're going to kill themselves in a spectacular fashion, is to have a word with someone whom they might listen to. I recall one fellow who came around seeking flight training and after a few lessons he just didn't seem to get the gravity of what we were trying to do. Liked to answer his phone while in the air, didn't get that, doing that wasn't cool while we were landing. He was frustrated quick, but then he tells me he already bought this PC-12 and just needed to get his license done to get flying it. He needed to get going places fast.

Had a word with his two sons. Turns out their father had a penchant for getting into similar trouble - he apparently was on a first name basis with the US Coast Guard for the ammount of times they've had to rescue him from sea since he got "into" sailing. Saner minds prevailed and we found them a company to manage their new plane for them, and of course supply pilots. Didn't stop him from wanting to get more lessons from said poor pilots, but they politely got him to stay in the passenger seat. Eventually it sounded like he moved on to another fancy.

Either way, here's a good case for what happens when the instructor can't say no.

viewtopic.php?f=118&t=90211

[Shiny Side Up]

Just came across something that one might feel relevant to the topic. Personally I've never really liked the Kings' flight training stuff, so I was sort of suprised to see something so candid in a recent FLYING magazine by John King. Worth a read.

http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/prof ... ping-point

Its unfortunate that it usually takes something so nasty to get people to re-evaluate. Some comments really jump out at you.

The saga continued everywhere we went. When concerned pilots were courageous enough to confront us regarding our flying habits, we didn’t take it well.

Pilots and many flight instructors have not been trained to effectively counsel pilots who take unnecessary risks. There was an implication that we had no judgment and lacked good decision-making skills. We tended to resent that. After all, we owned our own business and were doing well. In our minds, we clearly had good judgment and decision-making skills.

Tragically, it was not uncommon for us to return to a city in two months and learn that one of those spectacular people we had just taught had died in an airplane crash. I can name dozens. These were not foolhardy people. Like us, they just didn’t understand the risks they were taking. In each case, the death was considered a local tragedy.

Jeebus, that last bit is pretty tough to carry with you.

[Colonel Sanders]

These were not foolhardy people. Like us, they just didn’t understand the risks they were taking

From my perspective, they were foolhardy. They
weren't stupid. They took incredible risks with
minimal skill and little experience, for marginal
return. That's foolhardy.

Successful people have learned to push hard. They
get things done. They push themselves and everyone
around them hard. I know a little bit about pushing hard.

And, when they jump into an airplane, in a big hurry,
they try to push the weather hard. And you can guess
how well that's going to work out

There's two things you need to educate successful
people on:

1) there is nasty stuff out there, that is more powerful
than you ever will be, that will thoughtlessly and
effortlessly kill you. Cb's and icing come to mind.

2) develop credibility. Lots of people tell successful
people all sorts of disinformational nonsense, plenty
of which you can read here. You have to distinguish
yourself from the crowd, and develop credibility.

Plenty of people here think I am an ignorant, uneducated,
unskilled moron compared to them, but in real life, there
are plenty of people (some of them extremely wealthy)
that hold my opinion in very high regard, and listen to
me when I tell them something, because it sure as hell
isn't for my benefit.

[Shiny Side Up]

These were not foolhardy people. Like us, they just didn’t understand the risks they were taking

From my perspective, they were foolhardy. They
weren't stupid. They took incredible risks with
minimal skill and little experience, for marginal
return. That's foolhardy.

Well the companion article to the one above written by Martha, is disappointingly about words and language used in training which seems to bemaking excuses, and excusing such thought processes. I know maybe its me, the King training just gives me the heebie jeebies about how people are taught in some circles. Its just seems to be looking for a golden hammer solution to a more complex problem, and that hammer just ain't by changing some words.

There's two things you need to educate successful
people on:

1) there is nasty stuff out there, that is more powerful
than you ever will be, that will thoughtlessly and
effortlessly kill you. Cb's and icing come to mind.

2) develop credibility. Lots of people tell successful
people all sorts of disinformational nonsense, plenty
of which you can read here. You have to distinguish
yourself from the crowd, and develop credibility.

You should really write a book sometime. If one could convey these two ideas, the first to new pilots, the second to instructors, its in simplest terms, some of the best wisdom I've read on this website. I can't speak as much to how one might get though the point of 1), I'd be interested to see how someone in the shoes of a newer pilot would feel about being told that, if it would hurt their feelings or not.

2) on the other hand I know is really tough to do. You got to really work at it, and even then you probably will hold no water with half the people you encounter. I specifically don't tell people I meet in aviation that I'm an instructor, since they then immediately discount anything I say. Hence why I usually pose as the grounds keeper.

[Colonel Sanders]

I usually pose as the grounds keeper

Hey, don't knock the groundskeeper!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X48G7Y0VWW4


Years ago, I was the "network architect" at
a software company. I didn't dress very formally
and I didn't exactly enjoy talking to suits. So,
whenever I saw somebody wearing a tie coming
that I didn't know, I would turn and start plucking
at the plants hanging from the suspended ceiling,
hoping that they would mistake me for the gardener.
It mostly worked.