Deadly plane crash at Aspen airport

[Canoehead]

The Dash 8 has a tailwind limit (takeoff or landing) of 20KTS with the appropriate supplement and configuration. It's a hard limitation.

[pdw]

The Dash 8 has its large power supply centered very well.

Looking at a photo, the engine nose cones are nearly lining up with the leading edge, so when battling up to "20KTS" either-way / takeoff or landing it has all of its excess power lined up just right when it all needs to be applied at once at slow landing / go-around airspeeds (and regardless of what the weight is within its W&B-envelope).

[Maynard]

Pdw how come I feel as if I neither understand your posts, or the relevance of them?

[pdw]

OK will check that out ... and do some re-reading.

Landing 20kt tailwinds on flat land with the 20kt limitation is different than if at more than twice 'allowed' ... which is what the "10kt" aircraft does here (where it might not have it's "high mounted" thrust as close to centreline and actually supports the P.I.O. ?)

[7thirtyseven]

Yer killin' me pdw! !!

[pdw]

]Pdw how come I feel as if I neither understand your posts, nor the relevance of them ?

Since you're into this discussion ... you mind pointing out what's irrelevant about any of the points made ?

[7thirtyseven]

One little word wrong and it can mess up the whole meaning ...

Exactly what I keep telling my wife.

[pdw]

Chasing "33kts" there to get over the threshold was no longer a comparison to anything less, like 5kts 10kts or 20kts. (As long as that is clear.)

[justwork]

Pdw how come I feel as if I neither understand your posts, or the relevance of them?

+1 to each post on this page. I have no clue what you're talking about, either because it straight up doesn't make sense or is wrong.

Explain to me the logic behind your dash 8 tail wind theory? Something about something being lined up with the leading edge is the reason that plane wont have any problems with tail wind?

Why conducting a go around with a tail wind means youre going to fly into the mountains, you wont have an increase in airspeed after setting go around thrust or power?

Referencing tail wind limitations for an airport? An airport doesn't care as far as I know, its up to the pilots to accept or deny a clearance that is not safe. I believe they'll let you do what ever you want as long as there is no loss of seperation.

[pdw]

Explain to me the logic behind your dash 8 tail wind theory? Something about something being lined up with the leading edge is the reason that plane wont have any problems with tail wind?

Simple; can't PIO as easily if the go-around thrust doesn't push nose up (low hanging engines) or push nose down (highmount).

[Sidebar]

Simple; can't PIO as easily if the go-around thrust doesn't ... push nose down (highmount).

I flew a lot of go-arounds in CL600/601, and, if there was indeed a nose-down pitching moment from the engine position, it was easily overcome by normal aft forces on the control column. I have lots of ideas about what might have happened to this flight in Aspen, but none of them involve high-mounted engines as a contributory factor.

[justwork]

Explain to me the logic behind your dash 8 tail wind theory? Something about something being lined up with the leading edge is the reason that plane wont have any problems with tail wind?

Simple; can't PIO as easily if the go-around thrust doesn't push nose up (low hanging engines) or push nose down (highmount).

When you initiate a go around what do you do? Do you set the power and close your eyes? Do you pitch nose up or allow the plane to crash? Are you a pilot?

[pdw]

Clearance to land in a mountain valley chasing 40mph gusts across the threshold that are aligned to the runway heading must be a first or extremely rare, so as a pilot I wouldn't be able to answer these questions, nor know who would.

What chance is there ANYONE on here would ever get the chance to do something like this with passengers ?

[oldtimer]

IMHO everyone is chasing the effects and advisability of accepting a tailwind on landing. What about the passengers in the back who say that since they are paying big bucks for the flight, get then to Aspen or get another job because if you will not do it, I know someone who will. That was a factor in the G3 accident a few years ago where some Hollywood dude got upset when the flight crew determined the flight could not get there before curfue so the Hollywood idiot in the back gets on the phone with the owner/boss who gets on the phone with the flight crew and explains a few facts. Similar to the Bieber shit show where big money talks.

[goingmach_1]

For the record, in the AFM for the Challenger, "the maximum tailwind component approved for take-off or landing is 10kts."

Looks like the PIC, will have some explaining to do. Im sure the insurance company will advise the owner that because there was a AFM limitation exceeded, the Certificate of Airworthiness was not in force, and therefore the insurance is not in force either.

[pdw]

Pilots might never focus on such "10kt" info in a POH simply for the reason of never intending to land tailwind anywhere, thus never up for discussion. The airport's ATC on the other hand would need to know something about aircraft limitations for tailwinds, wouldn't they ? (seeing that here many aircraft's limitations are exceeded)

The 65 kilometer NW winds arrived here the same time as their tailwind approach (was not windy at Aspen yet while enroute), an occasion to realize more-suddenly the much bigger problem when ATC is not changing runway direction despite nearly CAVU weather for any-direction of approach. The pilots would have had to be informed well ahead of time that the one-way landing procedure would remain in effect with extreme-tailwind regardless of SKC.

[GyvAir]

Have a look at the approach charts for Aspen. As has already been stated here, there is no changing runway directions. I would be sorely disappointed with any pilot flying into there that hadn't self-informed themselves of that detail, preferably before walking out to the airplane.
Short article on flying into Aspen, published just a couple days prior to this accident:
Difficult Approach: Flying the LOC DME Rwy 15 into Aspen, Colorado

[xsbank]

For the third time, max tailwind for any Challenger for T/O and landing is 10 knots. Period. Also, it says right on the plate, you have to have been trained for the approach.

[lownslow]

The airport's ATC on the other hand would need to know something about aircraft limitations for tailwinds, wouldn't they ?

Actually, no. ATC can and will let you kill yourself, they just try to keep you from colliding with other airplanes.

LnS.

[pdw]

There's likely the biggest difference from Canada as of late, where ATC is also to contribute to SMS implementations (the reporting of safety issues).