Canadian Jet does Gear up landing

[pelmet]

Not good. Do Citations have an aural gear up warning.


"The Cessna Citation 501SP, registration C-GKPC, was on a flight from KFXE Fort Lauderdale Executive, Florida to MYNA Stella Maris AirportT, Bahamas. On the downwing leg for landing runway 31, the checklist was interrupted, and the aircraft landed with the gear retracted. The aircraft sustained substantial damage to the underside and the flaps. No one was injured."

[CID]

Yes. The pilot should have got a gear horn when he reduced power and a "Too Low Gear" from the TAWS.

That is if the horn actually worked and if TAWS was installed and working. Some classes of operator are notorious for not maintaing gear horns.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Was it being operated single pilot ?

[Brown Bear]

Do pilots REALLY need a check list to put the gear down? There are two items to be completed on every landing. Flaps set and gear down. When you leave the house every morning, do you need a check list to remember your pants? Shakes head. Let the excuses begin. Really?

[Doc]

Going to keep this short.
Being interrupted during a check list, is just one reason I don't use them. I don't believe they are necessary for day to day operation of a fairly simple airplane.
If something is off centre, then I definitely pull one out. Blind adherence to the written word can too often lead to missed items.
Develop a scan. A short final check, if you will...just to make sure everything's all lined up before you land.
I'm gone.
D

[Colonel Sanders]

Please don't blame the airplane. A C501
is a pussycat, not a fire-breathing dragon.
It does not need two or three or four pilots.

This guy would have made the same mistake
in a Bonanza.

[blockheater]

Instantly reminded of this incident!
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/c ... 02-48E.pdf

[bizjets101]

Well, that'll be the end of that Citation, embarrassing yes, but glad nobody was hurt.
Was a nice looking SP!! Owner imported it from USA in June 2010.


photo Doug Lambert

[arctic_slim]

It's a good example of why I do an MP3 checkbefore every landing. No matter what plane I have flown, I do this check on short final, even after all the checklists have been completed. MP3 = Mixture, Prop, 3 Green. Something that was hammered into us in flight school (if you didn't do this check on every approach you owed the instructor a coffee) and I use it on every flight, whether it's 1 crew or 2 crew, fixed gear or retractable gear. I do that check on short final every time because I don't want to break the habit and I don't want to join that special club.

[PilotDAR]

Being interrupted during a check list

I sorta agree, but not quite. The use of a checklist being interrupted is not the issue, it's what the pilot does after his thinking is interrupted. If you recognize that your thinking has been interrupted, then a checklist is an excellent way to get back on track - by using it again from the beginning. Oh, you don't have time to run the whole list again? Then you are being rushed, and should either extent or go around.

This old dog can learn a new trick - MP3! I like that! Remarkably simple, effective and memorable - thanks!

[single_swine_herder]

Ya ..... the label of "MP3 Check," threw me off for a few seconds .... confounded young 'uns these days!

I had a momentary vision of being expected to listen to a little segment of something like a Smokey Robinson, Temptations, or Aretha Franklin tune to focus the mind before touchdown .... LOL

[Colonel Sanders]

How depressing.

We spend the first 500 (or so) hours of a students
career, having them fly fixed gear aircraft, and we
teach them in that first 500 hours to NOT lower the
gear.

What do they do, when they get in an RG aircraft?

What we taught them to do - NOT lower the gear.

Learning factor of Primacy, hammered home during
500 hours.

I know I am a Bad Person (tm) for mentioning this,
but like a dog that spends it's day alone in an apartment,
I can't help but wonder if we're doing things right.

[lownslow]

We spend the first 500 (or so) hours of a students
career, having them fly fixed gear aircraft, and we
teach them in that first 500 hours to NOT lower the gear... Learning factor of Primacy, hammered home during
500 hours... I can't help but wonder if we're doing things right.

What do you propose, install retracts in all aircraft? Install retracts in none?

It's also bad primacy to start from zero with a false item on the checklist (check gear down in a fixed gear plane), or having a false gear handle with a horn for when you land with it selected up is just silly. Maybe more effective if you electrified the seat when the plane was landed with the false handle selected up.

If you want good primacy, teach your students to recognise what the airplane is telling them. It will do much more for them later in life than just noticing the wrong configuration on approach.

LnS.

[Brown Bear]

How depressing.

We spend the first 500 (or so) hours of a students
career, having them fly fixed gear aircraft, and we
teach them in that first 500 hours to NOT lower the
gear.

What do they do, when they get in an RG aircraft?

What we taught them to do - NOT lower the gear.

Learning factor of Primacy, hammered home during
500 hours.

I know I am a Bad Person (tm) for mentioning this,
but like a dog that spends it's day alone in an apartment,
I can't help but wonder if we're doing things right.

Some operators have new hires, and returning talent do circuits with the wheels down full time. I've heard ugly rumours of flight colleges adhering to the same asinine practice??? Still, there is no excuse for not having a last minute, over the fence scan of the "embarrassing" items....
I remain

[Old fella]

Jeez........ way back in early 70's doing CPL at MFC, they had a Piper Arrow. We were encouraged to get the 2 hr initial check-out cause of the gear/ variable speed prop and it was a little faster than the PA-140, step -up to a little more advancement the thought process was(of course more $$$ for the hourly rate). I don't ever , ever remember it being dropped on the rwy without the gear...........

[iflyforpie]

The Arrow has a gear that automatically drops. I've still heard of them landing gear up though.

[trey kule]

Many, many moons ago, I was flying an arrow and could not get the gear to come up! A little glitch in the auto gear extension system. I understand I was not the only one and Piper subsequently modified the system. But the interim solution was to override the auto extension.....guess what mindset that puts people in if they get used to being reminded?

The whole arguments about checklist is puzzling. Simple aircraft dont need it, but some aircraft you really do need a checklist despite the self appraised super ability. I honestly cannot recall ever seeing a beaver checklist, though I suspect there was one stuck somewhere to satisfy TC. On the other hand flying a large aircraft without a checklist would be disaster.
There is also a middle ground. Use a prestart and preshutdown checlkist...that way little items dont get missed. I seem to recall the checklist are for sissy groups shutting down navajos with the cowl flaps still closed, heaters not cooled down (left on)....even flaps still down. Everyone is not functioning 100% at the end of a long day. The point being it is not black and white. Common sense is necessary.
The final landing. GUMPS, however should always be done by memory, and NEVER before you say something like ...gear to come....an item that I heard was being taught at one professional FTU as they were doing GUMP checks prior to initial decent.

[Donald]

First off, congrats to the armchair qb's!!

Brown Bear and Doc the same user?

Secondly,

There are two items to be completed on every landing. Flaps set and gear down.

Personally I like the speed brake to be armed as well, but let's not let generalizations and pompous assness get in the way of a good old fashioned lynching.

[trey kule]

Speed brake armed? There are speed brakes on the 172 you fly?

Seriously though, i actually see nothing wrong with people continually trying to get the point across to make sure the gear is down and locked. Look at this accident. The pilot apparently did not admit to doing something stupid that damaged a plane..it was because he got distracted during his final .
checklist. Making excuses does not constitute learning.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Speed brake armed? There are speed brakes on the 172 you fly?

My 172 is a .20 Mach aircraft. Damned right I need my speed brakes.

[pelmet]

The Arrow has a gear that automatically drops. I've still heard of them landing gear up though.

Most have had them removed. I have flown an Arrow and a Tirbo Lance. Neither of them had the automatic extension system. It did create some other problems such as when slowing to your best glide speed after an engine failure, if you forgot to select override, you gear comes down. Frequently, not a good time for that to happen.

[PilotDAR]

The Piper Arrows had an airspeed actuated automatic landing gear extension system. Slow below a certain speed (around 105 MPH) and the gear would extend by gravity regardless of the selector position. This feature could be disabled, in which mode, the landing gear would be in the selected position only. If the gear extended on its own, so the gear position did not match the selection, you’d get the warning horn. The problem was that if you attempted to retract the gear while flying slower than the 105 MPH or so speed, it would not retract, and you had no horn (probably a good thing). But on a bright sunny day, you might not notice the gear position indicator – ‘cause you weren’t really interested on climbout anyway, and you’d climb to altitude with the wheels down. I found myself at 9500 feet in the Turbo Arrow 4, wondering why it would not do near book speed. The gear was down. I later noticed the nicely bright “Gear Unsafe” light at the top of the instrument panel, but concealed by the deep glare shied for a person sitting at my height (another lesson, getting in a new plane, slouch down to see what you might not be seeing in flight). You would lock the gear off (so it would retract upon command) for short or soft field takeoffs, where you wanted to assure performance. As Pelmet says, many were removed, as their failings exceeded their benefit.

I was aware of one wheel Twin Otter operator who insisted that a landing gear selector, complete with flap and power lever actuated warning horn be installed as a mod, simply so their pilots who cross typed would be consistent.

We all realize that the unfortunate Citation pilot just had a brain fart – he/she knows that the wheels are supposed to be down. Yes, you could say that they forgot to put the wheels down, but more to CS’s point, they forgot to assure the configuration was correct, and they allowed a break in the routine to cause an undetected failing. When we are doing a maintenance task, there is an expectation that if we are interrupted we will restart or review the completion of that task from the beginning. The same should apply to piloting – the pilot must recognize that they have been interrupted, and mentally over ride the desire to pick up where they thought they left off.
The needed primacy here is not to have new student pilots saying aloud as they reposition imaginary landing gear selectors, the primacy must be configuration assurance, interruption restart, and reversion to a paper checklist if you get fuddled.

I have never flown a Citation, but I imagine that like most retractables I have flown, it has power lever idle switches which will sound the horn – remember, it does you no good if you carry power to the flare. I can imagine future systems where LIDAR actuates a horn and the gear as a last resort within a few feet of the ground – insurance companies may demand it, the technology is available now.

[Old fella]

The Arrow has a gear that automatically drops. I've still heard of them landing gear up though.

No doubt, you are correct. I should have qualified my statement in saying nobody at MFC(during that era) dropped the Arrow on the pavement sans gear at least not that I was aware of. During my time there were may students from all spots Mid-East as well as India/ Pakistan although their command of English was good, there were some minor barriers. Only stipulation before getting near the Arrow, you did require your PPL.

Off topic......... these guys were fun to be around though and many took to the available' Liquor" and the chicks at the local drinking holes despite their strict beliefs as were were lead to believe. They had plenty of money and splashed it around downtown, one even bought a 2 yr ole T-Bird.

Ah.......... fond memories and fun times in those days.

[CFR]

Everyone follows a checklist - it just may be printed or not! Don't have a printed checklist? You have merely committed items to be "checked" to memory; just like a printed checklist where you have to commit a number of items (emergencies) to memory.

Checklists or memory procedures, if you don't do a self "challenge" " Response" both are useless! I used to teach an airbrake course in BC. We spent much of the week going over the pre-operation inspection for tractor trailer as they had to complete it by memory to pass the test. On the day before the test I went and got a rig from maintenance and brought it over to the classroom for a final run through. Every student went through the check by memory perfectly! The only thing was the tractor was in for air brake maintenance because it was broken! They did the checks but did not recognize the responses from the tractor as failed items and simply carried on to the next item. I almost did the same thing during my multi-engine flight test. Did the mag check on the left, did the mag check on the right, got ready to move to the next item when I realized that there was no drop in RPM on one of the mags! After a bit of thought I realized that one of the mags was live with the switch off. I did the check again to confirm and yup, it stayed live. So now the mind is running miles a minute (with not all the items in the best choice category) "I'm spending a Big Mac's worth of money a minute here and we just did a 15 minute check and taxi. Well a live mags not so bad, I use the mixture to shut the engine off anyway. Maybe we should still go." While I'm running this through my mind the examiner asks if there is anything wrong and I fessed up that one of the mag checks failed and we had to go back. To this day I like to think that was my intended course of action but I'm still not sure. Thankfully I didn't have to pay for the test or rental.

GUMPS, MP3 or any other means of checking gear down or any other required action is meaningless if you don't do a challenge/response.

[iflyforpie]

It's tough moving from aircraft that have different configurations. I split my time pretty much evenly between fixed and retractable gear planes.

For me... in addition to regular checks, I take a look out the window to make sure I have something to land on. Fixed or retractable... I should be able to see where the rubber is going to hit the road.