Making a great Salary now, should I move?

[yycflyguy]

Not sure why you think the travel benefits are false. All new hires will go behind every existing employee group. Future "managers" will all go ahead of new hires, regardless of seniority, based on a higher priority.

The year 1 "calculation" is fact for LCC767/319CA. It is taken directly from company pay scale. You admitted that your January had extra flying associated with it skewing your yearly projection. The fact remains that pilots are being paid less to do the same job at rouge.

[DH772]

Not sure why you think the travel benefits are false. All new hires will go behind every existing employee group. Future "managers" will all go ahead of new hires, regardless of seniority, based on a higher priority.

All new hires go behind existing employee groups? How so?
Aren't all AC pilots, FA, Rouge Pilots, AC maintenance...etc all C2's? So how are they of a lower priority group?

[snag]

I think the implication is that new hires go behind those senior to them (existing). Managers, however new, now have access to B priority passes and bump all us mere mortals.

[whiteguy]

5 year mainline FO pay on the A320 was about $105k some were awarded B767 mainline with 5-6 years service at +$120k
LCC A319 rouge Captain with 0 YOS makes $129k
LCC B767 rouge Captain with 0 years makes $118k
Travel benefits: AC/rouge new hires go behind Jazz, Georgian, flight attendants, agents, maintenance, ramp employees... also behind managers who are hired after.

Your better lifestyle and moula must be a result of your fortuitous past bidding which allowed you to enter the pay scale at a higher rate... those with 0 YOS in position are screwed.

New AC/Rouge hires travel based on the their seniority date just like everyone else. That's the way it's always been, not sure why it would be any different now. AFAIK Georgian travels on a lower priority, unless that's changed. Hasn't Jazz changed to? After a certain date Jazz employees are a lower priority to.

Or am I completely wrong and the travel benefits at AC have changed all together.

[livin']

New AC/Rouge hires travel based on the their seniority date just like everyone else. That's the way it's always been, not sure why it would be any different now. AFAIK Georgian travels on a lower priority, unless that's changed. Hasn't Jazz changed to? After a certain date Jazz employees are a lower priority to.

Or am I completely wrong and the travel benefits at AC have changed all together.

You are correct, YYCflyguy is wrong. new hire pilots at rouge are on the Air Canada pilot list and receive the same travel befits as someone at mainline. You travel on a C2 pass based on company seniority, exactly the same as a 777 captain does. Georgian/jazz (hired after a certain date) travel on a lower priority, you will travel behind a gate agent with more seniority but ahead of one with less. Managers do have a hire travel priority, so a manager hired yesterday will have a hire travel priority than you and a 777 captain with 30 yrs service.

This is fact. YYCflyguys' statement had some truths but in general was misleading and false.

[livin']

Not sure why you think the travel benefits are false. All new hires will go behind every existing employee group. Future "managers" will all go ahead of new hires, regardless of seniority, based on a higher priority.

The year 1 "calculation" is fact for LCC767/319CA. It is taken directly from company pay scale. You admitted that your January had extra flying associated with it skewing your yearly projection. The fact remains that pilots are being paid less to do the same job at rouge.

You are correct on the pay. Like I said, it works for me but won't be for everyone. It is what you make it and while the pay scale is lower the potential to earn more is there. There is no comparison in lifestyle when comparing rouge to junior reserve at air canada. For a new hire the pay is similar and if you want to, you can earn more at rouge than mainline.

Not sure who you work for but if you have ever been on reserve at Air canada and like to have a life then you might know what I'm talking about.

[yycflyguy]

5 year mainline FO pay on the A320 was about $105k some were awarded B767 mainline with 5-6 years service at +$120k
LCC A319 rouge Captain with 0 YOS makes $129k
LCC B767 rouge Captain with 0 years makes $118k
Travel benefits: AC/rouge new hires go behind Jazz, Georgian, flight attendants, agents, maintenance, ramp employees... also behind managers who are hired after.

Your better lifestyle and moula must be a result of your fortuitous past bidding which allowed you to enter the pay scale at a higher rate... those with 0 YOS in position are screwed.

New AC/Rouge hires travel based on the their seniority date just like everyone else. That's the way it's always been, not sure why it would be any different now. AFAIK Georgian travels on a lower priority, unless that's changed. Hasn't Jazz changed to? After a certain date Jazz employees are a lower priority to.

Or am I completely wrong and the travel benefits at AC have changed all together.

That is more correct. My mistake.

[yycflyguy]

Not sure why you think the travel benefits are false. All new hires will go behind every existing employee group. Future "managers" will all go ahead of new hires, regardless of seniority, based on a higher priority.

The year 1 "calculation" is fact for LCC767/319CA. It is taken directly from company pay scale. You admitted that your January had extra flying associated with it skewing your yearly projection. The fact remains that pilots are being paid less to do the same job at rouge.

You are correct on the pay. Like I said, it works for me but won't be for everyone. It is what you make it and while the pay scale is lower the potential to earn more is there. There is no comparison in lifestyle when comparing rouge to junior reserve at air canada. For a new hire the pay is similar and if you want to, you can earn more at rouge than mainline.

Not sure who you work for but if you have ever been on reserve at Air canada and like to have a life then you might know what I'm talking about.

Is there any concern/talk at rouge that as it grows and more senior pilots are forced off mainline positions and into LCC CA positions that existing LCC guys with lower seniority will be forced out of the left seat and into a different position? There are many holding CA positions at rouge that can't at mainline.

[shagger]

Not sure why you think the travel benefits are false. All new hires will go behind every existing employee group. Future "managers" will all go ahead of new hires, regardless of seniority, based on a higher priority.

The year 1 "calculation" is fact for LCC767/319CA. It is taken directly from company pay scale. You admitted that your January had extra flying associated with it skewing your yearly projection. The fact remains that pilots are being paid less to do the same job at rouge.

You are correct on the pay. Like I said, it works for me but won't be for everyone. It is what you make it and while the pay scale is lower the potential to earn more is there. There is no comparison in lifestyle when comparing rouge to junior reserve at air canada. For a new hire the pay is similar and if you want to, you can earn more at rouge than mainline.

Not sure who you work for but if you have ever been on reserve at Air canada and like to have a life then you might know what I'm talking about.

Is there any concern/talk at rouge that as it grows and more senior pilots are forced off mainline positions and into LCC CA positions that existing LCC guys with lower seniority will be forced out of the left seat and into a different position? There are many holding CA positions at rouge that can't at mainline.

As they are all ACPA pilots yes that is entirely a possibility.

[livin']

Is there any concern/talk at rouge that as it grows and more senior pilots are forced off mainline positions and into LCC CA positions that existing LCC guys with lower seniority will be forced out of the left seat and into a different position? There are many holding CA positions at rouge that can't at mainline.

Yes, ACPA pilots bid equipment on a seniority based system and if there are reductions then people can be bumped out of their spots.

No sure where you get your information, or what you define as "many" but there is currently 1 captain at LCC that could not hold a mainline captain spot.

Are you getting some joy out of posting speculation as fact?

[yycflyguy]

Is there any concern/talk at rouge that as it grows and more senior pilots are forced off mainline positions and into LCC CA positions that existing LCC guys with lower seniority will be forced out of the left seat and into a different position? There are many holding CA positions at rouge that can't at mainline.

Yes, ACPA pilots bid equipment on a seniority based system and if there are reductions then people can be bumped out of their spots.

No sure where you get your information, or what you define as "many" but there is currently 1 captain at LCC that could not hold a mainline captain spot.

Are you getting some joy out of posting speculation as fact?

You need to check your facts.

It's not speculation, but fact that:

There are 50 LCC 319 CA in YYZ that cannot hold equivalent mainline positions. (71% of the list)

There are 13 LCC 319 CA in YVR that cannot hold equivalent mainline positions (81% of the list)

Check your CMSC 14-01A review.

rouge might be your short term solution for WAWCON but have you done the math to see your career earnings difference between waiting a couple of years for the mainline position as opposed to accepting reduced wages earlier now? It's ok if you haven't. Most didn't. If you willingly bid rouge, your grandfathering rights are gone.

[livin']

Bottom mainline captain is seniority#2628, bottom rouge is 2629.

There is one person on the Yyz rouge captain list that cannot hold mainline captain. There are 0 in yvr and 0 in yul.

Your original post on this topic refers to mainline positions. The embraer is a mainline position. If you are referring to 319 vs 320 then you should say so, otherwise you are just misleading people.

[yycflyguy]

Bottom mainline captain is seniority#2628, bottom rouge is 2629.

There is one person on the Yyz rouge captain list that cannot hold mainline captain. There are 0 in yvr and 0 in yul.

Your original post on this topic refers to mainline positions. The embraer is a mainline position. If you are referring to 319 vs 320 then you should say so, otherwise you are just misleading people.

At no time did I make reference to the Embraer. I think you are the one misleading people.

I spelled it out quite clearly that there are 50 LCC 319 CA in YYZ that cannot hold equivalent mainline positions. (71% of the list)

There are 13 LCC 319 CA in YVR that cannot hold equivalent mainline positions (81% of the list)

Check your CMSC 14-01A review.

Bottom YYZ 320CA seniority is 2165 which puts him at position 20 out of 70 on the LCC319 CA list meaning 49 of those pilots are at risk of being bumped when the FINs xfer over. Same situation in YVR.

There are 8 APOS YUL LCC 319 CA
There are 16 APOS YVR LCC 319 CA

Saying there are 0 is terribly misleading. You probably meant 0 QPOS.

Let me know what your math works out to be when you compare 5 years at mainline equivalent pay vs 5 years rouge.... but you can't expect the overtime incentives in your calculations because my counter argument will be to point out the loss of per diem as most LCC 319 routes are turns with no layover.

[Fanblade]

Ask an MEC member. Mainline is overstaffed by about 200 pilots according to the company. Not sure if that is current or projected after the 319's move this year.

So far the company is choosing not to reduce in favour of reduced block hours but they reserve the right to change their mind. I think they are struggling with the retirement forecast.

The only reason AC is hiring at the moment is to fill Rouge spots. If the company changes there mind and reduces, hiring will stop and the seniority to hold Captain will significantly change.

[livin']

Let me remind you of your original post with regard to there being "many" rouge captains that cannot hold mainline Captain positions:

Is there any concern/talk at rouge that as it grows and more senior pilots are forced off mainline positions and into LCC CA positions that existing LCC guys with lower seniority will be forced out of the left seat and into a different position? There are many holding CA positions at rouge that can't at mainline.

You make reference to mainline captain positions, of which embraer captain is one. The numbers I gave are from the most recent equipment bid and are APOS. There is only 1 APOS rouge captain position company wide that cannot currently hold a mainline captain position. If you have access to the bid results then look it up.

Here is another one of your stated facts that is, for the most part, false:

Travel benefits: AC/rouge new hires go behind Jazz, Georgian, flight attendants, agents, maintenance, ramp employees... also behind managers who are hired after.

Here is another one that tells me you don't know what you are talking about:

but you can't expect the overtime incentives in your calculations because my counter argument will be to point out the loss of per diem as most LCC 319 routes are turns with no layover.

Of course you cannot predict OT income but pairings with per diems are there if you want it. Multi day pairings represent almost 50% of the yyz rouge pairings for the month of March. As Rouge is expanding it would be logical that multi day pairings will make up a significant portion of available pairings. Per diems at rouge are paid at the same rate as mainline.


I'm not sure what the future holds for Rouge , mainline or anybody else (I think Fanblades synopsis on the whole thing is pretty accurate). What I do know is that if you keep posting mistruths, then people that know better than you will call you out on your BS.

[watermeth]

Mainline is overstaffed by about 200 pilots according to the company. Not sure if that is current or projected after the 319's move this year.

I have a question though and I'm curious, not stirring the pot : if Rouge hires pilots, how can AC keep its pilots if all the seats at Rouge are taken. obviously the number of fin tranfered to Rouge will likely out weight the few 787 arriving this year.
Unless they force some manpower to Rouge, it's hard to see how AC will cope with this overflow of pilots if Board wants to keep costs low ?

[yycflyguy]

Ask an MEC member. Mainline is overstaffed by about 200 pilots according to the company. Not sure if that is current or projected after the 319's move this year.

So far the company is choosing not to reduce in favour of reduced block hours but they reserve the right to change their mind. I think they are struggling with the retirement forecast.

The only reason AC is hiring at the moment is to fill Rouge spots. If the company changes there mind and reduces, hiring will stop and the seniority to hold Captain will significantly change.

Exactly right.

The stagnation caused by non retirement affects all movement. Probably take another 2 or 3 years for upward movement to occur.

Additional RP hiring may be required if mandatory augmented flights through British/European airspace becomes a requirement that AC is obligated to comply with.

[Fanblade]

Mainline is overstaffed by about 200 pilots according to the company. Not sure if that is current or projected after the 319's move this year.

I have a question though and I'm curious, not stirring the pot : if Rouge hires pilots, how can AC keep its pilots if all the seats at Rouge are taken. obviously the number of fin tranfered to Rouge will likely out weight the few 787 arriving this year.
Unless they force some manpower to Rouge, it's hard to see how AC will cope with this overflow of pilots if Board wants to keep costs low ?

As YYC pointed out retirements were supposed to alleviate the surplus at mainline as fins transferred to Rouge. Those retirements are not happening and AC appears to be taking a wait and see approach at least for now. If they decide retirements will take too long and need to force reduce, mainline pilots will bump into Rouge.

AC is trying to avoid doing this but again how long they will wait for retirements to restart is their call.

[planeless]

No matter how you slice it the more flying moving to rouge is bad news for everyone air canada.

[Old fella]

Outside of less pay(if that is correct), what is the advantage of AC Rouge to me as a fare paying passenger. Unless I am missing something(and I miss a lot), on the grand scheme of things, what is Rouge all about despite it's color of red. I can understand your four carriers under the AC Express with aircraft types and destinations, but honestly Rouge throws me.

I am getting old................