On holding more than one license...

[all_ramped_up]

Now it seems whenever I hear about an AME holding more than one license it's always M1/M2. I'm assuming it's possible to be M1/S, M2/E etc but why is it that it's not as commonly seen?

As an M Student, I'm aiming for my M2 but as someone with extensive electronics experience I'm wondering how I'd go about getting my E license after? I could see that M2/E combo as being pretty useful.

Probably a second logbook but as for getting tasks done... Anyone have any further info? Would it just be a matter of finding an E licensed AME to help out at whichever AMO I work at?

Ideally it wouldn't involve coming back to school again!

[NeverBlue]

short answer is you can't have an E/M2

An M2 gives you E privilages but you have to show training and experience to be able to signout specialised tasks.

I know an M2 that owns an AMO with avionics on it and can't do the work because Transport feels they don't have the experience.

[helicopterray]

It's not a separate license, it's a separate category.

If you have an M1 and M2, you are qualified to certify avionics as well as structures, provided the AMO you work for can prove that you've got the relevant experience and training for the task.

I do know of a guy that had an M1 and went back to take the avionics course to become an M1/E, so it does happen, but it's rare.

[SeptRepair]

I hold both M1 and S. The reason for the S, was I challenged the exams way back when and then got grandfathered in. I think you dont see that combination as much now, as you currently have to go to school twice and have separate apprenticeships to get both. I'm guessing it would take at least 5 years if all went well to go that path. Easier to just get the M1 or M2 and then go start making money. As its aviation, the first few years are pretty lean trying to earn a decent living. So trying to convince yourself to go back to school to get another license so that you make a couple bucks an hour more doesn't make financial sense to most people. The claim you cant have an E and M2 sounds far fetched to me, but I may be wrong. I would have to have an overwhelming desire to spend mindless hours looking for a link in the CARS stating such.

[azimuthaviation]

you can't have an E/M2

Sure you can.

I do know of a guy that had an M1 and went back to take the avionics course to become an M1/E, so it does happen, but it's rare.

Not that rare, theres a lot of M/E guys.

EDIT: Didnt there used to be a chart TC put out which had the number of AME's in each category as well as the numbers of multiple rated AMEs in each category?

[NeverBlue]

M1/E.......yes

M2/E.......no

...there's no such thing as M

[azimuthaviation]

M1/E.......yes

M2/E.......no

The reg?

[NeverBlue]

M2 gives you E privileges

M1 does not

If you have an E and obtain an M2 you have to forfeit your E.

...name an M2 type course that doesn't include avionics.

[azimuthaviation]

f you have an E and obtain an M2 you have to forfeit your E.

So if I go out and get my M2 I am no longer qualified to sign off avionics a 172?

[NeverBlue]

No...that's not what I said.

566.03:

Information Note:Individuals who hold both an M1 and M2 rating will not be issued any additional ratings (e.g. E or S ratings), as those privileges are already held within the scope of the combined M1/M2 rating privileges.

I know a few that had to turn in their E licence before they could be issued their M2.

I'm pretty sure you can have an M1 and an E though.

[aviationsensation]

No...that's not what I said.

566.03:

Information Note:Individuals who hold both an M1 and M2 rating will not be issued any additional ratings (e.g. E or S ratings), as those privileges are already held within the scope of the combined M1/M2 rating privileges.

I know a few that had to turn in their E licence before they could be issued their M2.

I'm pretty sure you can have an M1 and an E though.

All 566.03 says is you get E/S rating if you have M1 and M2. Because if you have both you are a superstar and can fix everything.

You still need to get and E/S ACA to sign out any specialized maintenance at an AMO. I am sure you can get an E/S license with and M2 or M1 but it wouldnt make any sense. (You could just get the missing M rating and get a free E/S!)

[NeverBlue]

All 566.03 says is you get E/S rating if you have M1 and M2.

that's exactly the opposite of what it says.

There's no such thing as an ACA at most GA AMOs.

These are the Basic training requirements for M2 which are not included in M1

Upon graduation the student will be able to:

(a) Explain:
(v) mechanical and electronic systems including electrical/mechanical and digital control systems.

...which are the same as E Basic training requirements

[ourkid2000]

Neverblue your info is not correct. I have an M2/E......M2 does not give you E privileges. I repeat......does not. I got my E first and then got my M2 later on.

However, if you have an M1/M2 you will not be issued an E licence no matter what. An M1/M2 AME can only sign out E or S specialized work if you can prove your training background to Transport Canada. I've had several discussions with Transport about this.

Edit: Neverblue what you're describing with regards to the M2/E is what happens when you have an M1/M2. See the reference in CARS below:

Part V - Airworthiness Manual Chapter 566 - Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (AME) Licensing and Training
(9) Additional ratings.

An AME may apply for additional ratings by meeting the requirements specified in 566.03. Credit will be granted for any requirements that were met in qualifying for the currently held ratings.

Information Note:

Individuals who hold both an M1 and M2 rating will not be issued any additional ratings (e.g. E or S ratings), as those privileges are already held within the scope of the combined M1/M2 rating privileges.

[NeverBlue]

I know a few that had to turn in their E licence before they could be issued their M2.

you may have Ourkid2000 but I know for sure the above has happened in my shop.

Do you actually have both M2 and E ratings showing on your licence?...or two different licences?

An M1/M2 AME can sign out E or S specialized work if you can prove your training background to Transport Canada.

I've said that all along.

[ourkid2000]

As an M Student, I'm aiming for my M2 but as someone with extensive electronics experience I'm wondering how I'd go about getting my E license after? I could see that M2/E combo as being pretty useful.

Probably a second logbook but as for getting tasks done... Anyone have any further info? Would it just be a matter of finding an E licensed AME to help out at whichever AMO I work at?

Basically what I will say to this is pretty simple......You cannot do this. Well, not easily.

The E license, like the S license, requires specific training to be proven before being issued. That's why you rarely see the courses offered together (CONA in Gander, NL in the only school that offers such an animal.....E and M together). So when you go to BCIT, or Centenial, or Canadaore, etc you pick one or the other.

So lets take your case for example. When you graduate, you will have met the basic requirements for the AME-M (M1 or M2) license but will have no training credit towards the E license. Even if you had two logbooks filled out and worked as an E apprentice for many years as you mention, Transport would never recognize your previous M training towards the E license. Know what I'm saying here?

There are two routes that usually lead to the M2/E. It usually starts with folks who complete an E course in school who then go on to complete the AME-M ICS course at home in their spare time. If they already have an E licence and then go on to apprentice as an M for at least a year.....they can then write the Transport Canada exams and apply for the M. There is no ICS E or S course at this time.

The second, and more vague, route is the individual who possesses an M1/M2. Folks who say they can sign out anything because they have an M1/M2 are a little misguided but I understand where this notion comes from because CARS states this: "Individuals who hold both an M1 and M2 rating will not be issued any additional ratings (e.g. E or S ratings), as those privileges are already held within the scope of the combined M1/M2 rating privileges."

Technically these people, if they can prove that they have appropriate training through their AMO, can sign out specialized E or S work (which would normally require an E or S license). It's just not so cut and dry.

Make sense? I know it's confusing but this is how it works.

[NeverBlue]

Neverblue your info is not correct. I have an M2/E......M2 does not give you E privileges. I repeat......does not.

You are correct sir.

I have confirmed that both the AMEs I was referring to actually did have both their M1 and M2 and had to turn in their E once they recieved the M1/M2 rating.

sorry for messing this all up...but I do believe that this is the real value in these types discussions...

[aviationsensation]

Neverblue your info is not correct. I have an M2/E......M2 does not give you E privileges. I repeat......does not.

You are correct sir.

I have confirmed that both the AMEs I was referring to actually did have both their M1 and M2 and had to turn in their E once they recieved the M1/M2 rating.

sorry for messing this all up...but I do believe that this is the real value in these types discussions...

I'm glad you finally came to your senses. All the regs mean is that if you can change an engine on a 172 and a 737...you can repair the spar and re-certify the altimeter on a dash 8.

[dashx]

I have confirmed that both the AMEs I was referring to actually did have both their M1 and M2 and had to turn in their E once they recieved the M1/M2 rating.

Confirm by posting a TC link.

[Sparkfarmer]

I am M2/E. I got an "E" license, then an M2. If I were to get an M1, I would no longer have the "E" on my license, which I believe is important. More important than the "M2"... There isn't (to my knowledge) a correspondence course for E. So to get the E rating you would have to go back to school. The "E" has served me better than the M2, but it's nice to have the signing authority on M2 aircraft. From an employment perspective, having the flexibility of the M2/E makes you a very hot commodity. Just don't expect to be paid more.

[Colonel Sanders]

I knew an old guy, he was a B and D engineer. Most
of them are dead now, though.

[SeptRepair]

I know a few guys who used to be B, D and P. They are all still alive.

[747-875]

I know a couple people with an M2/E combo. I believe they got their E license as per the normal route of school then time and tasks then license, and then a couple years down the road did the M2 as more/less a side project while employed as an E. I know one did it by just doing M schooling through correspondence and logging any M tasks they partook in as they came up, until eventually having enough to go get M2 added to their license.

It's not that common, but it is doable and depending what corner of the industry your in can be quite useful to have. If you read CARs there is nothing saying you can't have more than one license. You can have M2 and an E, M1 and an S, M2 and an S and an E, and on it goes.

The only "catch" that is explained in CARs is if you have both an M1 and an M2, then you get a free S and E (I believe they won't show on our license or be issued to you, they just automatically count if you have M1/M2). I'm not sure on the M1 side of things but for an M1/M2 engineer working in the M2 world, the S and E privileges only count for aircraft which they have ACA/type course on, and obviously within the limits of the AMO.

[iflyforpie]

I am M1 and M2 and thus have both my E and and S endorsements. I use my S endorsement for our Structures category at our General Aviation AMO under my ACA. We have no avionics capabilities, and I have no avionics experience, so my E will remain dormant...

[arcticheliwrench]

If you read the back of your licence M1 or M2 "include ...structures..." FWIW

So possibilities:

M1
M2
M1/M2
M1/E
M2/E
S

????

But really, as an M1/M2 one can not do specialized avionics or structural work unless approved by the AMO. The regs allow it sure, but unless you are qualified under the AMO it doesn't mean much.

[Heliian]

Possible combinations:

M1
M2
E
S

M1/E, M2/E
M1/S, M2/S
M1/E/S, M2/E/S
M1/M2

And finally, you can add a B rating to any of the above including the M1/M2

TC won't permit previous time to a new rating but the required time is different. You still have to show 70% of tasks in your logbook applicable to the rating.

For clarification talk to your local tc rep.