How Much Wouls You Pay.

Blastor · Post by **Blastor** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:21 pm

Last time I check you didn't pay for company training at the Hospital, liar oooops Lawyer and Dentist office.

Same goes for EMS, Firefighters, Aircraft & Car Mechanics, Plumbers, and the rest....

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:42 pm

Blastor wrote:Last time I check you didn't pay for company training at the Hospital, liar oooops Lawyer and Dentist office.

Same goes for EMS, Firefighters, Aircraft & Car Mechanics, Plumbers, and the rest....

To become a paramedic you need First Aid Training.

Yes you do. Don't be naive. To get a job as a FireFighter you need a Z license, no license no Job.

Cop College costs $6k in ontario, you'll supposedly get it back depending where you work but you pay for it. Same with the training at NavCanada you pay for the course.

AMEs, rofl, apprenticing is paying your dues, the fact you have to act as an apprentice and pay for it(co-op) is funny.

The last two, lawyer and doctor? ROFL, go open up a practice, lets see how far you'll get. That chinese doctor managed to bilk OHIP for 5million though with no schooling and was fined $250k for fraud, so I guess it isn't impossible.

But you can do that too, it's a crappy logbook, put in 5000 hours, put in PPC, you can get a CPL for probably $5k just make every .5 hobbs into 2.5 no one will know. Don't say ppl don't do that anyways(stuff/fluff their logbook).

I don't think PPCs should be bought, but I don't think they should be mandatory... Just because you have a PhD in Theology doesn't make you king sh8t. If you have a PPC or 10k hours it doesn't make you god either.

flyinthebug · Post by **flyinthebug** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:42 pm

Ok, ALL good points from a pilots perspective. Now, at the risk of getting flamed clean off this board, i`ll ask the following question...
You are an Ops Mgr or CP for ABC air service. You advertise for a pilot. You get an overwhelming response, and some 350 resumes for a light twin job in a matter of 5 days. The fax machine, email and phone are lighting up like never before. Now, the CP and OPs Mgr sit down and discuss the resumes that the CP liked. Of the 350+ resumes, there are about 6 that would be suited to the job (you`d be shocked when you ask for minimums due to contract requirements, how many people light on time and experinece still apply). You call all of the 6 that you felt were worth pursuing. When the smoke clears and all references are checked, you are left with two candidates. ...... One has a current PPC on the machine, and one doesnt. They both had above average references, and were both well liked, and good pilots at their previous job or jobs. Is it up to the opertor then to find out "where or how" he obtained his or her PPC? If he drove the same machine at his previous job, wouldnt one assume he earned it?Now, can you HONESTLY tell me that as a responsible operator, with the companies best intrests in mind, that you`d spend the 4K or so to train a person, when someone with a current PPC is sitting there, equally as capable, equally as reliable and professional and ready to start?? If you can all say that you`d go with the guy that cost you 4K, then I know why this industry is going to shit. NOW, that said, if I knew that said prospective employee had BOUGHT his PPC, rather then maybe earned it with a previous employer, that would change my perspective completely and I would likely consider the NON PPC`ed candidate, but its not the operators responsibility to find out "HOW" he got his PPC, to assure the aviation community that he didnt buy it. This all said, it would take me 20 mins to type out ALL the operators whos hiring pratices INCLUDE seeking out PPC`ed pilots. You`d be shocked at who all does this, sincerely.
But in the end, these guys answer to their bosses (owners) and when the fiscal year end comes in , and the company made a few beans, everyone keeps working for another year. So, hiring with a PPC, isnt always as bad as it appears, and maybe, just maybe, in a small 703 op, the management may just be trying to save ALL his guys and gals jobs, by trying to save a few bucks on training. When a company makes a gross of about 1 mill a year, 4K can make a world of diffrence. Its just business, we shouldn t take it so personally.
From a line pilots perspective though, I FULLY agree and understand the damage that clowns that BUY their PPC`s cause us all. I`ve never bought one, and never would. Just remember the industry is in real trouble, and cost cutting is at the forefront of ALL operators. My 2 cents , flame at will. Fly safe all, Cheers

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:54 pm

Snapped. Yep, this comes up again and again doesn't it? If we are to face the fact that SOME pilots take a PPC and run, then we should ask why it happens. And does it really happen that often? Is there an agreement in place before training starts? Verbal or written? Salary/benefits and schedule agreed on? And will both sides honour their word? These issues should be discussed before an offer and acceptance of employment. That sounds equitable for both potential employees and employers. Doubt it happens very much.
I should mention that I believe that pilots who do not honour an agreement are as bad as an employer who expects employees to pay for training. The question I have is; when a pilot comes through the door of an operator with a current PPC, don't you wonder how they got it? Somebody paid for it. Isn't it hypocritical of an operator to frown on employees leaving with current PPCs' but are willing to hire them?

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:57 pm

F* computer.

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:58 pm

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:01 pm

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:02 pm

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:04 pm

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:05 pm

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:05 pm

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:15 pm

Why would it cost $4,000.00 to PPC someone on a light twin?

Cat

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:18 pm

That's the going rate, 4200 for a 310, 5500 for a navajo.

12500 at flight safety for a B90.

But you're right, it shouldn't cost that much.. and for just another pilots sake, it shouldn't cost _anything_...

flyinthebug · Post by **flyinthebug** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:38 pm

Cat.. PA31-350= approx $375 per hour cost (insurance costs are INSANE)
multiply that x at least 5.0 hours training at COST(4.0 minimums in ops manual, but good luck trying to fit it all in in 4 hours with someone new to the machine)= $1875.00 add $250 for ACP or TC, add landing fees (yep we still have to pay em on training flights) then add TC`s "admin" costs to do NOTHING, the time and cost involved in paying the CP or training Capt delegate to do the actual training($30-40$ an hour). Now dont forget the actual ride itself, and usually most guys/gals on a new machine need more then the minimum 4 hours. So, add 1.2 hours for the ride now, and usually another 1-2 hours training (not to mention sim time) Before you know it, even one blown ride, and the cost far exceeds 4K DIRECT to the operator. Cat, you should know this stuff! Or maybe you havent flown a PA31 since it was 100$ an hour to run em? Either way, thats the COST, not what it costs to BUY one, thats more like was stated above. BTW, we do not sell PPC`s at our company PERIOD. I will be the first to admit, ive hired ONE guy with a PPC, and he lasted a total of two months, and thats only because he intimidated his F/O`s so they wouldnt talk to the CP or Ops Mgr. Lesson learned? Yup, for those that BOUGHT at the former infamous airline *cough* on the left coast. Cheers, fly safe alll

milton · Post by **milton** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:50 pm

lets say Joe Blow pilot say gets laid off from ABC Aviation and he holds a current PPC on a King Air. Of course when he applies to XYZ Aviation he will be more attractive that John Blow with no PPC. He is not just holding a PPC he paid for, but also has operational experience on the respective aircraft. A PPC with no operational experience isnt worth 2 pennies in my opinion.

Murdoch86 · Post by **Murdoch86** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:27 pm

0.00$

but would sign a training bond

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:26 pm

cyyz :

O.K. :

Now that I have got up from the floor after having fallen of the chair, what is the hourly rate on a C310 and a Navajo now?

Forgive me for being stunned by these figures but I never paid a penny for check outs on any airplane..............

When I got my multi rating in 1960 I did 2 hours in a 310 F and someone took it away so I did 3 more hours in a Apache and did a ride and was given the multi rating...............what in fu.k is going on in aviation today, is everyone just numb to being screwed?

Cat

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:00 pm

Cat. Your probably aware of the Peter Principle and TC. Most of the regulations and standards have been developed by those who never had to meet them. And I believe people are becoming numb to being bent over. But thats Canada..comrade.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:09 pm

Precisely.

I hope I am still around when the industry demands some common sense be put back into the way TC regulates the industry............However I probably will never live to see that happen.

The sheep in aviation just keep drinking all that TC Kool Aid.........Sad but true.

Cat

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:16 pm

FlyingtheBug had the numbers about right in his post and the situation too.

It's a spiral dive.. Time will tell if we'll recover from it, or if we'll want to.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:11 pm

Ok . From what I see in this and other forums, most pilots want good pay, good training and good working conditions but none are ready to give any type of commitment what so ever. I agree that I don't like paying for a PPC nor would I, however, I am willing to do three things.
1. If the company trains me, I will stay so the company can get fair value from the investment.
2. I will research the company and the city and the working conditions and if they are not as I had envisioned, I will keep my mouth shut till time or bond is up and then leave. What I mean here is that if the job was a night freight dog and I find I don't like night freight, then tough titty. I signed on for a time and I will stick it out. Just because sweet nothings were dancing in my eyes and all I could see is multi turbine!! However, if the company jacks me around and conditions are not as described, I will leave because I am no.1. If they promised a Metro and I payed for a Metro but end up on a "HO. bye bye.
3. I will give a full days work for a full days pay. But miss one paycheck and I am gone.

milton · Post by **milton** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:25 pm

I think one way that problem can be solved is by an individual researching the respective compnay before they apply to work there...too many pilots "Resume Fling"...they hand out as many resumes as they can, but if someone asked them a few questions about the company they were applying to, they would be speechless. If a pilot learns about a company from all angles, he/she will know before hand if they would be happy there. Plus, it is very easy for an employer to determine if you are just resume flinging or are genuinely interested in their company. I guess my whole point is that if pilots focus on companies where they want to work, less of this jumping ship would occur. Some ppl may argue, its tough now, gotta work somewhere...true...but I honestly believe that if u put 110% effort into say 4-5 companies alone that u admire, you will be hired quicker than if you fling resumes to 100 companies a month...

well informed pilot prior to pursing employment = happy pilot while employed = happy employer = no need for training bond

what d'ya think

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:20 pm

Milton, you put in better words than I exactly what i was thinking. As a former chief pilot for a now defunct company, I saw lots of guys that could only think Lear jet, Never once thought that the customer might want to leave Friday evening, because I have made plans. Well, different story. Flying jet charter is a shit job. period. On call constantly. The boss or the customer thinks he owns your soul. Get over it or move on, except someone put out almost 20 G's for your training. I know guys who love the life, others hate it. I hated it. I had the oppertunity to fly a Lear 25 or 35, a Westwind 11, or a Hawker 700 but I stayed on the turboprops simply because I didn't want to leave town every Friday night or be on call. Flew the Lear 25 but it was a freighter. Monday to Friday. Weekends off. So I stayed as a freight dog and was happy doing it. Monday to Friday for me. But I never missed a day. Because I also never missed a payday. Honest days work for an honest days pay.

180 · Post by **180** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:33 pm

What do I think?

I think it's easier for someone with a valid PPC in their pocket to say "No, to buying PPC's and training bonds" then it is for someone who is stuck in the single VFR world with a valid Multi-IFR wilting in their wallet.

I think the guys who were given PPC's and then promptly split to greener pastures ARE THE REASON new guys can't get a job without one!

So what am I to do Milton?

If I buy a PPC, I'm perpetuating the problem.

If I don't do a training bond, I'm stuck flying single VFR. And I HAVE targeted specific companies. But without a PPC, companies like Sunwest Home and Borek want nothing to do with me. (And I do have 1000+ hrs PIC.)

No to buying a PPC. Yes to a training bond that is paid back in full.

Now, to the task at hand of finding a decent company that does training bonds and has more than a few multi-turbines...

On that subject, anyone know of any companies other than Alta Flights?

Intentional Left Bank · Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:38 pm

cyyz, I would like you to back up the statement you made:

Look at most aviation accidents. Caused by pilots with 10k+ hours.. Using employer hiring standards they're actually worse off by hiring some person who's flown for so long, because it's they who crash not the young people..

Funny, I always thought that those actuaries making up those tables for the insurance underwriters had a tendency to cover their asses, and those of their employers and investors. Evidently, you think that they are wrong (as I admit I too did when I had 500 hrs). Perhaps you should let the insurance industry know of their foolhardiness. I'm sure every CP in Canada would also be receptive to your insights.