This 1500 hours for copilots in usa

[timel]

Will force airlines to reviews pilot salaries on long term.

Regulations on right seat is good for everyone.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL ... 1?irpc=932

[trey kule]

As someone else commented in the article. There is not a shortage of qualified pilots, but a shortage of qualified pilots willing to work for 22k a year. An unintended consequence of the airlines pushing wages down, and now having to reap what they sowed.

Thank God for Canada. TC will wait until some people have died needlessly before taking similar action, and Canadian pilots are still willing to work for slave wages.

[timel]

Agree 100% also it is sick to have a 250 hrs pilot beeing allowed to fly a high performance airplane with no experiences at all. Tc allows it thou. If company need they will.

[Liquid Charlie]

This is all fall out from the Buffalo accident -- along with FDT regulation at the same time they questioned experience levels for first officers and the concerns of stick and rudder skills -- they passed legislation upping the requirements for the ATP and requiring an ATP to occupy the right seat of commercial jets and I believe large turbo props -- I could stand corrected on that one - I'm going on a briefing I saw from 3 years ago -- there were also a sliding scale on experience for the ATP depending on where you are receiving your flight training -

Will this come to Canada -- possibly -- but the FDT will be dealt with first and knowing Canada they will supply KY for us all - I don't believe our crew in Ottawa have the balls to do it right and it will be a basterdized system that does no one any good --

[Colonel Sanders]

This is all fall out from the Buffalo accident ...
passed legislation requiring an ATP to occupy the right seat

I know I'm not as bright as your average bureaucrat,
but wasn't the left-seater flying at KBUF? Didn't he
have a long list of flunked rides?

Smile and nod, I know.

[GRK]

Hey Time…
Hate to break your bubble, but a huge part of the rest of the world puts fully capable pilots in the RHS of large jets at 250 hours…it's called training. When a country has no GA population or ex military to put into seats, that country will train pilots from scratch and hire from abroad. Heck, the EU still does it! Lufthansa used to be good at it…China is doing it as fast as they can. Do I agree with it? Kinda…my time offshore with several carriers had low time FO's and almost to a man they were good enough to do the job. Canada has a different look as there are plenty of options for companies to choose from. (Just ask Sunwhatever)

[timel]

Well concerning China, I know a old 747 captain that flew there for 20 y. He told me the only thing the copilot could do is operate the auto pilot and radio + incapacity of flying a vfr approach or just fly a 172. Now this guys are becoming captain. Air France rio-paris where in a stall one was pulling the stick and the other pushing.
You are right. It does happend. Industry has been like that for a while. Still I don't believe it's right.
Stick and rudder experience remains important in my opinion.
Anyways USA has made a good decision.

[timel]

And it's the same thing in Europe you have copilots paying for their training on 737 at ryanair and arriving with shitty salaries. Again a 250hr pilots. Their are plenty? Fantastic work conditions coming with that... China pilots have a 40 y. training bound. They just suddenly decided they needed airplane.

I'm sure Europe would have had a bigger small commuter market if they would have obligations to hire 1500 hrs to fly high performance aircraft.

[iflyforpie]

This is all fall out from the Buffalo accident ...
passed legislation requiring an ATP to occupy the right seat

I know I'm not as bright as your average bureaucrat,
but wasn't the left-seater flying at KBUF? Didn't he
have a long list of flunked rides?

Smile and nod, I know.

More than that, the right seater had 2200 hours and would not have been affected by this legislation.

Smiling and nodding......

[timel]

Colonel Sanders a écrit:
I know I'm not as bright as your average bureaucrat,
but wasn't the left-seater flying at KBUF? Didn't he
have a long list of flunked rides?

Smile and nod, I know.


More than that, the right seater had 2200 hours and would not have been affected by this legislation.

Smiling and nodding......

I have to agree that you can have + 2000 hours with no skills and + 250 hrs with great skills.
But it is to the industry to keep the standards. If I fail my ppc i loose my job.

[MrWings]

Who is benefitting from requiring 1500hrs to be a co-pilot? The even lower paying skydive and fly-by-night operators who will get to keep their slaves even longer.

[Colonel Sanders]

you can have + 2000 hours with no skills

unusual

and + 250 hrs with great skills

also unusual

Not sure what is gained by cherry-picking examples
from the tail ends of bell curves.

The three things that affect performance:

1) aptitude
2) training
3) experience

This hasn't really changed much, in a very long time.

You will note the military often gets good results with
minimal #3 by cherry-picking for #1 and hammering #2.

However, in the civilian world, #1 and #2 frequently suck
which frequently produces some pretty marginal 250hr
pilots.

[timel]

+2000 unusual but happens.
For civilian it is to companies to set standards. I disagree with you. You can provide good trainings and on failure of a fair ppc some refuse candidates. So you keep the good ones and it's fair for everybody.

[Colonel Sanders]

you keep the good ones

Too bad you weren't in charge of Colgate's
training program.

[jump154]

you can have + 2000 hours with no skills

unusual

and + 250 hrs with great skills

also unusual

Not sure what is gained by cherry-picking examples
from the tail ends of bell curves.

The three things that affect performance:

1) aptitude
2) training
3) experience

This hasn't really changed much, in a very long time.

You will note the military often gets good results with
minimal #3 by cherry-picking for #1 and hammering #2.

However, in the civilian world, #1 and #2 frequently suck
which frequently produces some pretty marginal 250hr
pilots.

#1 is non-existant - simply if you have enough money you can get trained.

#2 is frequently short-cut. Look to see how many threads on here are "How can I get x for minimum $/hrs", "Can I count this hour towards x,y and z?", "Can I avoid doing this?". Sure a top of the curve from #1 with excellent instruction can progress quickly - but most of us need more time/training

#3 - see #2. "Must get done in minimum time" mentality

[Longtimer]

As someone else commented in the article. There is not a shortage of qualified pilots, but a shortage of qualified pilots willing to work for 22k a year. An unintended consequence of the airlines pushing wages down, and now having to reap what they sowed.

Thank God for Canada. TC will wait until some people have died needlessly before taking similar action, and Canadian pilots are still willing to work for slave wages.

Airline Transport Pilot's Licence..... Canada
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... 1-1086.htm
(4) Experience

An applicant shall have met the training requirements for the issue of a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane that is not restricted to daylight flying and completed a minimum of 1500 hours total flight time of which a minimum of 900 hours shall have been completed in aeroplanes. The total flight time shall include a minimum of:
(amended 2000/09/01; >previous version)

(a) 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes which shall include where applicable, a maximum of 100 hours pilot-in-command under supervision flight time completed in accordance with Section 421.11. The pilot-in-command and/or pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include a minimum of 100 hours cross-country flight time of which a minimum of 25 hours shall have been by night;

(b) 100 hours night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot of which a minimum of 30 hours shall have been acquired in aeroplanes;

(c) 100 additional hours cross-country flight time as pilot-in-command or 200 hours as co-pilot or any combination thereof, with flight time calculated in accordance with section 421.10. Flight time as pilot-in-command may be part of the 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time specified in paragraph (a); and
(amended 2005/12/01; >previous version)

(d) 75 hours instrument flight time of which a maximum of 25 hours may have been acquired in approved instrument ground trainers and a maximum of 35 hours may have been acquired in helicopters. Instrument ground time shall not be applied toward the total 1500 hour flight time requirement.

[timel]

Or you have IATRA

[timel]

you keep the good ones

Too bad you weren't in charge of Colgate's
training program.

Those companys should be grounded. But you'll never me sitting my ass at TC.
Anyways they would never want me.

Didn't know about that... But when copilot do 22k you must feel your life is shitty as hell

[goldeneagle]

Didn't know about that... But when copilot do 22k you must feel your life is shitty as hell

Nothing wrong with 22K, that's a decent month by most standards.

[loopa]

So what about the 9000 hour pilot's that can't fly even if their life depended on it? Should we implement a 25000 hour rule for captains?

Where's that auto pilot? Ah yes! Phew... I don't have to fly anymore. <wipes sweat off forehead>

[Gino Under]

Some of you might be missing an important point here.

Failures aren't the be all and end all in aviation, or at least they shouldn't be.
Yes. I know the public doesn't see it that way but then the public doesn't understand the first thing about flying aeroplanes.

Quite often failure is part of success. Ask any learning expert about failure. Failures are part of everyones 'experience' in life. Why focus ONLY on a checkride/PPC? Because many think they're unlikely to 'fail' at something the reality is, we can and DO. Many can easily fall close to the line that separates a satisfactory performance from an unsatisfactory performance no matter what it is that's being evaluated.

A company that off handedly fires a pilot for failing a checkride or PPC has a lot to learn.
A company who has a pilot that fails an unreasonable number of checkrides or PPCs needs to ask a few questions. It probably needs to have a meeting with the pilot concerned and include his or her instructor, the pilot who administered the check along with the training manager, to get to the bottom of the issue.
Rarely is an individuals performance exclusively his/her fault. I know I've had good instructors and I've had bad instructors and they're the ones passing along the information I need to be successful. It's a shared contract. All pilots, when it comes to learning are, in a way, just like a computer, garbage in, garbage out. The way most pilots in the US were evaluated during flight tests on the stall recovery event was no loss of altitude exceeding plus 100'/minus 100'. Again, this evaluation was nothing more than garbage in, garbage out so most pilots end up pulling against a stick pusher to keep within that tolerance. How dumb was that? Yet, most arbitrarily jump on the Colgan Captain for reacting exactly as he was taught, had to demonstrate and was eventually evaluated on.
Sorry, I don't think he's the only one to blame here.

As for that Colgan Dash 8 Captain, his skill set prior to that accident was the result of not only his ability or inability but the training (beatings) he received, checking (another beating) and PTS "interpretation" (which varied from FSDO to FSDO) he was subjected to at his airline. The NTSB report on Colgan should be mandatory reading for every critical pilot out there who prefers to scoff at his background rather than look at his record AND the airlines he flew with not to mention the ridiculous PTS interpretation his check airmen put all pilots through at that airline.
Remember, the fact that the F/O on that flight retracted the flaps during a stick shaker event (approach to stall) is 'really' what sealed their fate.

1500 hours and an ATP as a minimum requirement for Part 121 ops is nothing more than an arbitrary line in the sand imposed by politicians who sought very little industry imput.
Each applicant should require nothing more than a CPL, ME, IR as a minimum. However, an intelligent hiring might be to actually look at what the applicant has on offer by taking the time to review his/her resume claims. Check the job background claims, look at what the number of total flying hours are AND actually analyze how they were earned. You might even want to talk to the candidate to validate those qualifications.
I've observed some very competent and capable 300-400 hour first officers.
Experience is what comes at a premium and that ultimately is what we're looking for.

Total time is a red herring.

Gino Under

[iSight]

...look at what the number of total flying hours are AND actually analyze how they were earned.

+1

Where's that auto pilot? Ah yes! Phew... I don't have to fly anymore. <wipes sweat off forehead>

I've got to hurry up and get more experience so I can get a flying job where I don't need to fly anymore.

[Big Pistons Forever]

This law has stopped US Regional airline WAWCON's from being eroded by 250 hr wannabe's living in their parents basement blinded by SJS and willing to work for ridiculously low wages.

It has driven a stake into the heart of shithole P2F "airlines" like Gulfstream from further polluting the profession with pilots with money but no talent.

US Regional WAWCON's are going to have to improve as airlines are already poaching each others pilots with the airlines with the worst packages already parking airplanes due to a lack of pilots.

Jet airliners are going to have FO's with at least some prior experience before being given a right seat.

Canadian pilot pay is being benchmarked against US Regional salaries. A rising tide floats all boats

From my POV it is all good news

[trey kule]

While I dont have a dog in this fight at this point in my career, I have to agree with you.

It is to bad that you will find disagreement from those who have no experience ,who dont know the value of experience , and are willing to work for diddley squat. It is disappointing to see pilots defending the low wages and working conditions.


There simply is no practical way to completely substitute training for experience.

[frozen solid]

Canadian pilot pay is being benchmarked against US Regional salaries. A rising tide floats all boats

From my POV it is all good news

..unless the industry reaction to having to increase salaries is to intensify research into how to safely implement and market technology that allows single pilot or NO-pilot aeroplanes...