Curious about how things work behind the scenes when I get my clearance, and the differences between me getting it from an airport thats controlled, one with a FSS and from aerodrome with no agency.
Last night we departed a larger airport in the wee hours of the morning (Read MF vs Tower Controller). After recieving our clearance Medics informed us they forgot something it was going to add 10-15 min until we could depart. Other pilot thought we had to leave it behind or cancel our clearance, I thought we could just advise the Radio, (as a courtesy so he was in the loop) and wait while they sorted it out in the back. Ended up being a non-issue and we left right away, but it got me wondering.
At an airport with a control tower, I don't expect any sort of "Clearance cancelled if not airborn by XXXX" because I assume the tower controller passes it on to center when we take off and the IFR controllers space according to when we acctually leave.
When the tower is closed but its an MF I assume the FSS performs the same task, and as such I would not expect any sort "clearance cancelled if" clause.
Should I depart an aerodrome that is in uncontrolled airspace, with the intention of entering controlled airspace, when I call center up on the phone to get my clearance before departing I WOULD expect that clearance to contain some sort of "clearance cancelled if" clause, because in this case no one is there to give the terminal controller a heads up that I'm airborne.
1.) I know the AIM says I have to advise ATC if I wont take off within 60 min of my filed time to avoid SAR launching, but what if any requirements exist outside of this?
2.) If I'm back at that MF airport and after I get my clearance something comes up delaying departure what happens to my clearance? Of course I'm gonna let the FSS know if we're gonna be a while, but how much is a while? 15 min? 30? 60? do you guys protect the airspace along my route up to the time of my propsed eta even if theres something to tell you "no he hasn't left yet"
3.) The AIM states an IFR clearance recieved at an uncontrolled aerodrome "may" contain a restriction or cancelation, but shouldn't there have to be one every time?
IFR clearances and "Clearance Cancelled if not airborn by X"
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore
Re: IFR clearances and "Clearance Cancelled if not airborn b
You've got everything pretty much covered at towered airports, as they are in control of departing and arriving aircraft. With the MF your route isn't so much an issue but more so the departure being protected... which as you mentioned "may" contain a restriction after xx lands or yy departs etc etc etc or they may leave it open (only had this in once in the last three years, anyone else?)
That being said you forget your CAPs in the FBO and will push you past the invalid time etc then you would have to call via phone, radio to get a new clearance.
That being said you forget your CAPs in the FBO and will push you past the invalid time etc then you would have to call via phone, radio to get a new clearance.
Re: IFR clearances and "Clearance Cancelled if not airborn b
From my (limited) experience:
If you get an IFR clearance over the phone, you should leave within 5 minutes [source: just ask them on the phone when they give it to you if they don't tell you specifically when the clearance would become invalid].
If your clearance is cancelled, you would need to get another clearance.
Not really sure if that answers your question. I can't find any reference to it either, but I hope it helps.
If you get an IFR clearance over the phone, you should leave within 5 minutes [source: just ask them on the phone when they give it to you if they don't tell you specifically when the clearance would become invalid].
If your clearance is cancelled, you would need to get another clearance.
Not really sure if that answers your question. I can't find any reference to it either, but I hope it helps.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: IFR clearances and "Clearance Cancelled if not airborn b
tdawe wrote:Curious about how things work behind the scenes when I get my clearance, and the differences between me getting it from an airport thats controlled, one with a FSS and from aerodrome with no agency.
Last night we departed a larger airport in the wee hours of the morning (Read MF vs Tower Controller). After recieving our clearance Medics informed us they forgot something it was going to add 10-15 min until we could depart. Other pilot thought we had to leave it behind or cancel our clearance, I thought we could just advise the Radio, (as a courtesy so he was in the loop) and wait while they sorted it out in the back. Ended up being a non-issue and we left right away, but it got me wondering.
At an airport with a control tower, I don't expect any sort of "Clearance cancelled if not airborn by XXXX" because I assume the tower controller passes it on to center when we take off and the IFR controllers space according to when we acctually leave.
When the tower is closed but its an MF I assume the FSS performs the same task, and as such I would not expect any sort "clearance cancelled if" clause.
Should I depart an aerodrome that is in uncontrolled airspace, with the intention of entering controlled airspace, when I call center up on the phone to get my clearance before departing I WOULD expect that clearance to contain some sort of "clearance cancelled if" clause, because in this case no one is there to give the terminal controller a heads up that I'm airborne.
1.) I know the AIM says I have to advise ATC if I wont take off within 60 min of my filed time to avoid SAR launching, but what if any requirements exist outside of this?
2.) If I'm back at that MF airport and after I get my clearance something comes up delaying departure what happens to my clearance? Of course I'm gonna let the FSS know if we're gonna be a while, but how much is a while? 15 min? 30? 60? do you guys protect the airspace along my route up to the time of my propsed eta even if theres something to tell you "no he hasn't left yet"
3.) The AIM states an IFR clearance recieved at an uncontrolled aerodrome "may" contain a restriction or cancelation, but shouldn't there have to be one every time?
At an airport with a tower, as has been stated, the controller worries about departures and arrivals. When you depart doesn't really matter as far as the center is concerned.
At an airport that FSS works, they call us to get a clx for you. The only time that I will issue a "clx cancelled if not airborne before XXXX" is if there is traffic inbound and I am running arrival vs departure separation. Otherwise if you are going to be delayed, just let FSS know and they will let me know. 99% of the time it isn't an issue. If you are delayed too long, there may be an a/c inbound that now comes into the mix and may result in you getting a "clx cancelled if not airborne before XXXX".
If the airport is uncontrolled (say Bathurst) you can get a clx from me through Quebec FIC or on the phone from me directly if you call the centre. In these cases you will get a "clx cancelled if not airborne before XXXX". At places like Charlo or Miramachi you can call me on the radio while on the ground for your clx. You will also get a "clx cancelled if not airborne before XXXX" in this case. If you need more time in either case, let me or the FIC know.
If you are going to be delayed 30 or 60 mins from an uncontrolled airport I would probably cancel the clx and reissue it as required as I am protecting a lot of airspace for you. If it's at an airport with FSS, it's a toss up, depending on what's going on I may let it ride or cancel the clx. Chances are there will be no delay re issuing it. We routinely get American biz jets call us at uncontrolled airports asking for a clx. When we ask how long before they are ready we often get "our pax should be here in the next 30 mins or so". We (or at least I) won't issue a clx in this case. I will normally give you 15 mins to get airborne after issuing the clx.
Should there be a "clx cancelled if not airborne before XXXX" every time from an uncontrolled airport? It's certainly good practice in my mind. I have taken over sectors from people that have had an outstanding clx in the board with no "clx cancelled if not airborne before XXXX". I am responsible for alerting services on your departure. When do I start looking for you? Did you depart right away and something has happened? Are you still on the ground? Too much uncertainty for my liking.
Hope that clears things up.
