the race

[NeverBlue]

"I didn't say it was you're fault. I said I'm going to blame you."

there, there...you should quit that job

Couth: showing or having good manners

You had to look that up?

Buzz word?? because you don't know what it means it's a management buzz word? it's just English pal

That mentality works fine if you live in a box or do bench work but when you are working nights trying to troubleshoot a transient engine power issue things get a little more muddy. You cant replicate the snag. Is it indication error? Is something actually going south? or is it nothing?

again...if you've done everything you can, correctly, and something happens...how is that your fault?

It's ultimately the pilot's decision to take it up isn't it?...based on what you've written in the Log (which should at least say "given snag not confirmed")

and what makes you think that working on the bench or nights is any different when it comes to not being able to replicate given snags?


...especially when the written snag says something ridiculous like "head not working correctly" or the infamous "NFG"

[hoptwoit]

again...if you've done everything you can, correctly, and something happens...how is that your fault?

It's ultimately the pilot's decision to take it up isn't it?...based on what you've written in the Log (which should at least say "given snag not confirmed")

So now its the pilots fault? See what following "procedures" is for "as long as its not your fault". Whatever helps you sleep at night.

and what makes you think that working on the bench or nights is any different when it comes to not being able to replicate given snags?

You have to work on your reading comprehension. I was talking about an unrepeatable snag as it pertains to an engine power issue. When the GPS or Cabin PA fails in the middle of a flight it tends to be less critical than the aircraft becoming a glider. See the difference?

You had to look that up?
Buzz word?? because you don't know what it means it's a management buzz word? it's just English pal

I look up lots of stuff before I spout off . Like regulations, specs and procedures. I don't want to be caught up in the internet culture of "If you can't be right be wrong the loudest"
Given snag not confirmed.......
Good night

[NeverBlue]

...and there it is.

That was way too easy! You "Hopped" right into that one didn't ya!

so...you think you're better than an E engineer huh?

You think all we do is fix Cabin PAs or GPSs??? Ha!...typical. (GPS units today are not repairable except at factory smartguy)

Haven't you ever looked at an M.E.L. before? Do you even know what RVSM means?

AFCS, SAS, WX Radar, RadAlt, AHRS, DADC. Do you have a clue what any of those do? Na...not critical at all.

You see that right there is why there is a "Race to the bottom" as you put it. Because of people like you who think they're IT. Everything in the industry works because of YOU and everyone else is useless.

Classic

Maybe you should ask an E the next time you NEED HIM to fix an EICAS sensor that has a broken wire on it why he thinks his paycheque is slightly bigger than yours.

...that was perfect Hoptwoit...really

Hahahahaha................

[Troubleshot]

Neverblue I see you grasping at straws these days...what's RVSM?...seriously man? you honestly think you are gonna stump anyone here with that?....ok while we are on the subject of RVSM riddle me this (caution I know the answer)... what is the defined area (sq inch) that there can't be any damage to the aircraft skin as marked by "the box" around the pitot tubes?...this is a RVSM ACA requirement but I am sure a mighty AME E like yourself will know such things...(well you better, you started it)


You know I often have a sarcastic chuckle at your black and white view of aircraft maintenance, spoken like a true shop tech... no pressure from MOC (that's maintenance control) or ops (that's operations). No plane full of people watching you @#$! with a seat or "fish -bowling" you while you have to pop the engine cowls (those cover the engines). Or you have two broke planes at once on the line (that's at the gates) and you have to make one good one...I'm sure you are faced with similar pressure where you are, like running out of solder, stripping the wire too far, pitot-static tester leaked the first time you hooked it up, etc.. I get it bro...its a jungle out there...

I worked the line by myself for 7 years without the help of any AME E, never even crossed my mind to call for one from a main base...why the hell would I? Most AME M guys just don't like that boring kind of work...if i had to do the 737NG field elevation test on the MCDOO every night I'd shoot myself. Don't confuse lack of interest for lack of knowledge there skippy...and I can legally keep a plane flying, you can't...

I loved all the avionics you rattled off there...I should ask you...do you even know what an MEL is? Do you know that dispatch doesn't give a @#$! if the plane can fly above FL290, they need that plane in the air in 20 mins...that's real world my friend..slap the stickers and placards in the cockpit and release it, we'll fix it on the overnighter. You think I need you to fix it? haha, give me a break... bad computer, loose pin in cannon plug, bad control head...it ain't rocket science buddy. I may send you the bad computer to solder in some new resistors or something but who wants to do that for a living?

I've worked with plenty of AME E guys over the years but you are one of the few that screams for attention a lot...you know I have never had this conversation with any E guy I have worked with, mostly because we don't care and we are just trying to get through our 4th shitty nightshift. I may not be as polished as an E guy, and no doubt most are very good at their one or two ATA codes but make no mistake an Airline isn't running with just E guys, it can with just M guys...

[Pat Richard]

mostly because we don't care and we are just trying to get through our 4th shitty nightshift.

In half a sentence, you describe perfectly the mindset of a great majority of mechs in this business.

I see it constantly.

Guessing bench monkey's don't suffer from this, but its very common in line situations.

[conehead]

... an Airline isn't running with just E guys, it can with just M guys...

Really? Why are all the airlines trying to hire E guys? Doesn't make any sense, if all they need is M guys...

[NeverBlue]

It's called sarcasm troubleshot...of course I think he knows what RVSM means.

Your attitude is typical as well...you think you're all the "all powerful guru of aircraft" as well.

Thank you for reiterating that. This is too easy.

I have never and will never take for granted what an M and an S does because I know MY job and don't pretend to know anyone elses.

You three (pat, hoptwoit and troubleshot) are only showing your ignorance and arrogance here...and you can't even see that.

Classic...

...and "the race" leaders are...

[Troubleshot]

... an Airline isn't running with just E guys, it can with just M guys...

Really? Why are all the airlines trying to hire E guys? Doesn't make any sense, if all they need is M guys...

Conehead...I should have said an airline can run with no E guys, not saying they should. E guys definitely are valuable but if it were all things equal we would see just as many E guys as M guys in a large outfit and that is simply not the case. More like 2 avionics techs for every 8 M guys. Right or wrong that's just the way it is. You may see more in a heavy environment for large installs, etc. but most of the time that ratio applies. Avionics AME's are faster and better at their craft than an M guy, but again 95% of it can be done by an M guy.

Guys like NeverBlue that live in a box 40 hrs a week have no clue what a fast paced environment looks like, hell he doesn't have a clue what line avionics AME's day would be like. I do, and have seen some great troubleshooting and work by avionics AME's...

Airlines hire E guys because they are faster than M guys in certain areas, and in that setting speed is key. However, if there is no hangar...there is no E guy. Outstations do not have E guys simply because there ACA is limited and it is not cost effective to place an expensive AME that can only sign out certain systems on an aircraft.

[NeverBlue]

but again 95% of it can be done by an M guy.

hell he doesn't have a clue what line avionics AME's day would be like

where do you come up with this stuff? how do you know what I do or don't do?

More like 2 avionics techs for every 8 M guys

...not anymore...

Your hubris is nauseating

[ourkid2000]

Like it or not Neverblue but Troubleshot is right in what he describes. There's really no point in arguing.

I'm an E guy and everywhere I've worked this is the way it is with about a 2E to 8M ratio (if you're lucky). Troubleshot has been with quite a few as well as he's named Porter, Westjet, Canjet, etc. I've been with Canjet, Jazz, and a few others so that's a fairly good cross section of the Line maintenance airline business. Outstations, especially, never have E guys.......only a couple M's to defer the snags and look after the AOG's.

[Troubleshot]

"How do you know what I do or don't do?"

It is pretty obvious what you do and what you don't do based on your posts...

And yes, sorry to inform you, most larger AMO's/Airlines that actually employ both licence types (E and M) the M licenced guys far out number the E licenced guys. This is a fact and goes on to further prove you have no friggin clue what you are talking about. They don't employ more M guys because we are better, they do because there is more "M" work to do. Again, another fact to prove you have no clue outside your small world.

Using the word hubris while on an internet maintenance forum says a lot about you really. You think I am being arrogant, when in reality I am simply stating facts. I am sorry these facts hurt your ego but that's the way it is...

Where do I come up with this stuff? It's called experience, and I am not talking just in years either. You see someone(like yourself) can have 20 years experience and still be so green when it comes to the industry because you have been rebuilding radio's at a table your whole career with horse blinders on. It explains a lot really, your view on the industry. You see, I can voice my opinions based on real life situations and experiences in multiple facets of aircraft maintenance. All we get from you is rose coloured glasses and words like hubris...

And you still haven't answered my question about RVSM...

[NeverBlue]

I'm an E guy and everywhere I've worked this is the way it is with about a 2E to 8M ratio

well you don't work where I do and that is not the ratio

And you still haven't answered my question about RVSM...

...because I don't answer to you

I sign out RVSM recerts all the time...the only way you can do that is to be approved to do that...I don't need to prove anything to you

a fairly good cross section of the Line maintenance airline business

...really?...four places ? a very small part of civil aviation maintenance in Canada and you think that it's the same everywhere?.

Using the word hubris while on an internet maintenance forum says a lot about you really

what the hell does that mean?

I'm going to go "solder some new resistors" now

[ourkid2000]

Ok fair enough, 4 places yeah.....

However, I will add that Air Canada is the same (I have a couple friends who work there and the agree with it). So that's Air Canada, Jazz, Porter, Westjet, Canjet. I would hazard a guess that just about all of the rest, whether it be Firstair, Air Inuit, Kelowna Flightcraft, Cascade, Discovery Air Tech, etc, all operate with the same kind of ratio. I wouldn't call this a small sample. This represents a huge chunk of Canadian civil aviation and, more importantly, the kind of business Troubleshot is describing and the kind of business most of us find ourselves in.

You must be in a very unique operation.....and that's cool but you can't really compare the two from what I've gathered from your posts.

All this E & M stuff that's being discussed on here (which as Troubleshot points out.....no one really cares about) pretty well comes down to one thing.......the scope of the licenses. The M2 license covers probably 85-90% of the work on the aircraft in a line or heavy maintenance setting, if not more. That's why the ratio is the way it is.

[Pat Richard]

Airlines hire E guys because they are faster than M guys in certain areas, and in that setting speed is key. However, if there is no hangar...there is no E guy. Outstations do not have E guys simply because there ACA is limited and it is not cost effective to place an expensive AME that can only sign out certain systems on an aircraft.

Not quite sure why he is having difficulty grasping this, but this is exactly what I see every where I go.TS nailed it.

As for ignorance, it's pretty obvious who really is suffering from it.

[motox415]

Entertaining!

[NeverBlue]

I think it's freak'n hilarious!

I've tried as hard as I can here to not divulge exactly what I do and these guys spend all of their time on here trying to tell me what I do and that I'm terrible at it.
"Entertaining" doesn't do it justice...it's gut busting sometimes believe me.

You should see the people coming to my computer asking me what their replies are...what I said etc.
Most Thursday nights at the pub this site is what we're all talking about.

The funniest is when they rhyme off numbers like "95% of AME's agree with me" or "90% of all aircraft maintenance I can do cause I'm an M" or "I've worked at most of the main players in Canadian aviation, 4, so I know everything"
...probably not even realizing that there's upwards of 16 - 17, 000 AMEs in Canada and most of them, not all, holding down a job somewhere in the world for one of the thousand or so AMOs registered in Canada.

Canada's aviation industry is the 4th largest in the world for Christ sake and world renowned for it's success!

I bet they don't even know that Bell Helicopters-Textron outside Montreal is the 3rd largest Aerospace Company in Canada, CHC International is the largest of it's kind in the entire world!
CAE, Atlantis Aerospace, AvCorp, MacDonald Dettwiler, Canadian Marconi, Magellan, Litton...I could go on and on...all huge companies that, you guessed it, employ Canadian AMEs!

...But "probably 95% of all AMEs agree with me on this 'cause I've done pretty much everything"

...sure...they know...

Hilarious

[Meecka]

This is hilarious. Its like a train wreck, you just can't look away.

F'king brutal.

[helicopterray]

probably not even realizing that there's upwards of 60 - 70,000 AMEs in Canada

There are about 2500 AME's employed in Canada. For 2009 to 2012. Service Canada refers to us as 'Aircraft Mechanics and Inspectors'.

There are a lot of 'technicians'. These aren't licensed AME's, but rather, have an SCA, a Shop Certification Authority.
The assembly lines at Bell Helicopters and Bombardier don't use AME's but technicians. The AME's do the final inspections and certifications.

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/qc/j ... 7315.shtml

[NeverBlue]

My numbers are directly from a top source at TCCA but I heard it wrong...
That's what happens when your typing what someone else is saying and turbine noise over the years has made you deaf...and he's had a few

NOT 60 - 70, 000... but rather 16 - 17, 000

Not all TC licenced AMEs work in Canada. Not all work in maintenance either.
Those numbers are what are currently in their system.

[azimuthaviation]

There are about 2500 AME's employed in Canada

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/qc/j ... 7315.shtml

That's just in Quebec.

where theres also nearly twice as many avionics techs...

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/qc/j ... 2244.shtml

[helicopterray]

Code: Select all

That's just in Quebec.

Good catch. I read that a few times and thought the number was quite low. A few years ago, I spoke to a TC inspector who mentioned that up until that time, there were about 13 000 AME licenses issued in Canada. He could not tell me what the breakdown was in categories (M, E, or S), nor could he tell me how many were still active in the industry.

There's obviously more now.

[Troubleshot]

I've worked more than four...but your right what do I know? Seems every time I simply write out facts you get all hissy...

Never once said I knew everything, just obviously know more than you. 90% of aircraft maintenance can be done by an M licenced guy...tell you what you list the ATA codes you can sign off and I'll list mine, willing to bet I'll be in the 90-98% range. That is not arrogance, that is math skippy.

I've been to a pub also and you know what never comes up...Avcanada...

[NeverBlue]

I think that means laughing...not hissy.

... never comes up at the pub but it seems to come up at your job everyday...which has nothing to do with aviation.

[YYZSaabGuy]

I thought this thread sounded familiar........

[Troubleshot]

I think that means laughing...not hissy.

... never comes up at the pub but it seems to come up at your job everyday...which has nothing to do with aviation.

I've said this to you before but anywho...Aviation is now a hobby, and at least now I don't have to make a shitty living out of it anymore. I haven't let my licence or currency requirement expire either. Matter of fact I did a few turns two weeks ago. I'll tell you why because I know you'll bring it up in some sort of childish manner. It is called an insurance policy, as in being prepared for unexpected events in life....well not your life, I mean lets face it your life is awesome based on your posts here so you probably wouldn't understand. Will I ever go back to aviation?...not unless I am forced to by some event. The grass is too green over here.

I said this several times..working on aircraft is fun, it is the industry that sucks and is decades behind the rest of the big industries from a employee stand point.

You see Neverblue you lack prospective in all your posts on this subject, so I shouldn't hold that against you I suppose...