Go Back Home!

[jjbaker]

There is a slightly different approach to cadet based airline training programs in the EU vs. what we do on this side of the pond.

Unless you fly for Ryanair, you actually stand a chance to make more than a Assistant Asshat at a fast-food restaurant within 10 years of employment. I know that our "dreaded devils" get paid and they get paid rather well, for starting up Asian & Arab outfits. QOL has an influence on motivation and it has an influence on professionalism.

None of the guys who waited and flew for 9+ years as FO started with as much of an entitlement attitude than the new generation of SJS stricken idiots. Bob Holland and Skip didn't start flying aerobatics with an entitlement attitude, I know neither of them personally, but I guess if we sat around the bonfire with some of these guys, we could probably learn a thing or tow about being humble. You don't have to be 60-70 years old to miss the good old times...

I dare guess most of the folks who have spent 20+ years flying big iron never once felt half as entitled as anyone of the kids walking into any of the "jump-start your career today and be a real airline pilot tomorrow" programs today. Its downright pathetic, but on par with replacing humans from airline cockpits. Today's airline pilot is a manager first, a glorious Quax second or never. The fewest of the few see situations in which they can spring into "Hero Mode" - like Sullenberger did - and save the day with good old basic flying skills. Its this old school approach, the habits developed over decades, that made this possible and I am certain Sullenberger would admit that there was more luck than anything involved. He also didn't have a greenhorn rookie for a copilot.

Shit happens, no question and in the end the size of your logbook doesn't save your bum. Good habits, respect and professionalism will. Where you obtain those habits and experiences and professionalism is secondary to anything when SHTF. If that doesn't make sense to anyone, ask one of the "dreaded devils" who have worked their way up, just to find themselves sitting next to a pimple face with no brain and a smart device addiction.

I don't think the 1500 hour rule will do anything to offset or heal the self-inflicted cancer in the industry.

[Josh90]

must be nice for these foreign pilots

You're missing the point entirely. Although from your
perspective, someone climbing into the right seat of
a Boeing at 200TT seems like a dream come true at
first, it is actually a nightmare and would not be good
for you.

You probably think I'm an idiot and don't know much
about aviation compared to you, and I'm ok with that.



Man people are quick to attack on this forum and twist words eh?


With all due respect colonel I think it is you who is misunderstanding... In no part of my post did I say I think it's smart placing a low timer in a boeing, and nor did i say I want/expect a job in a jet. I fully stated I agree it's dumb and highly unsafe so why would I want myself in that situation? All I'm doing is Simply stating must be nice they found employment.

I don't know you but I'm sure your not an idiot and are very knowledgeble. I'm fully admitting I don't know jack sh*t and am a baby in the aviation world... I'm willing to bet 99.99% of the people on this site know more then I do

And trey,,,
Same to you as I said to the colonel. Good for them on finding employment. Never said I agree it's a good think.

No it is not a captains job to "train and mentor" a 200 hour pilot in the air, I agree with you 100%. If you took the time to read my post in no way did I say that.

I mearly stated the fact that 1- I'd be happy with/want a rampie job as I am currently looking for one and having no luck in the search so far... I don't know how this was twisted into me saying I want to be placed in a 37 with westjet and have the captain teach me along the way...

2- yes I would love a mentor. Someone to take me under their wing and help me develop into a great pilot, as I dream to one day be.. Again that was somehow twisted into you guys thinking I want in a jet ASAP ... Regardless of career path I'm a firm believer everyone should have a mentor!!!

[Josh90]

And yes I'm aware I completely failed that attempt at quoting your post... Clearly I'm new on this site ahah

[trey kule]

Lets face it, the internet is not the best place to communicate.

The point I was trying to make that if you think someone is doing something stupid and dangerous, one does not normally congratulate them. That kind of comment tells me that if you were offered a right seat job tomorrow, you would not say...nope, sorry, I am not going to put hundreds of peoples lives in danger so I can learn and be mentored. Do you see the disconnect?

It is a huge problem, particularly with the college grads. While they talk about learning and getting experience, the fact is most of them will chisel, parker-pen logbooks to show they have far more experience then they do. And will move up as fast as people will let them. Again despite lip service, if a Captain would just respect them, they would be an immediate asset to the right seat...it is what they are doing, not what they are saying. And of course, respect does not need to be earned,,

I am not sure what you are looking for in terms of mentoring. My past experience is that pilots often want their mentor to let them hand fly, break SOPs, and generally be a great guy rather than setting an example of how to be a Captain...oh, and walk their resume into the CP's office or use their connections to get the mentored a job...so....as this thread has already drifted farther off course than an Air Malaysia. Airliner, perhaps share with us, in some detail, what you expect from a mentor.

[Josh90]

You are correct the internet isn't the best place for communicating. But when something is unclear maybe instead of attacking, just ask ? Haha

As I said someone to take me under their wing help me be the best pilot I can be, someone who will be a hard ass on me and help me learn and develop... Let's face it you'll never learn to be great at anything on your own...Never said it had to be a co worker who will let me break SOPs or some "great guy".. Not looking for connections or hand out for jobs or friends for that matter, fully ready and willing to start at the bottom, the way it's supposed to be.

[Josh90]

And for the record trey, I'm not just centering you out, this site just seems to be filled with people attacking one another and a lot of negativity. Let's just all get along ahah!!

[trey kule]

At the risk for being labelled a raving attacker, reread your response as to what you are looking for in a mentor... Then be specific as possible. Being a hard ass when necessary. Help you learn and develop.

Sounds good, but does not mean a great deal to me. Try and be specific. How are they going to teach or show you things. Are you going to fly with them. Do you want them to teach you while flying, or just encourage you to fly to standards.

I am genuinely curious, as many of these great sounding truths are little more than great sounding truths in practice. If I sound jaded, it is because I have tried the mentoring thing a few times, and the results were pretty similar, and a bit disappointing.

If you have concrete ideas , please share them.

[Colonel Sanders]

I am fascinated that so many 200 hr wonders
think that it is appropriate - in fact, enormous
success - that they receive dual flight instruction
with paying pax in the back, while they are
dressed up in the right seat as a parody of a
professional pilot.

[CanadianEh]

I train exclusively Chinese airline cadets and find that the common theme in terms of weaknesses are more of the "soft" skills. Skills such as airmanship, decision making and overall confidence with the aircraft. They study hard and can do procedures no problem, but it's the "thinking outside the box" that is lacking. PIC time helps develop these skills and I think Canada can at least partially attribute it's good safety record (especially considering the environment we operate in for much of the year) to the experience building required of it's pilot and the process that has been in place for year. Airlines are screwing things up trying by not rewarding that experience and taking short cuts (ie: Cadet programs when there are enough qualified applicants anyway, EVEN AT THE CRAP WAGES BEING PAID!)

[Colonel Sanders]

I know my simplistic ideas are horribly antiquated
(you know, about systems knowledge, stick and
rudder skill, etc) but I think a 200hr wonder would
be vastly improved by spending a year flying a
206, 'ho or 'van with just little ol' them in the cockpit.

I know, you're in a terrible hurry, you don't have
a year to learn about aviation before you become
a pilot.

[jpilot77]

I know the years I flew single pilot in a HO criss crossing the country doing survey were the most fun, and the best learning experience of my career.

[Colonel Sanders]

+1

Personally, I think the FAA should have changed
the rules to simply require 1000 PIC for right seat
part 121 (instead of an ATP).

To the 200hr know-it-alls ... go get 1000 PIC and
come back and tell me that you didn't learn anything.

[jpilot77]

PIC is great but solo or single pilot is even better when your starting out, you'll be forced to make all the decisions.

[BTyyj]

PIC is great but solo or single pilot is even better when your starting out, you'll be forced to make all the decisions.

Who under 1000hrs is flying dual as PIC anyway, except maybe instructors?

As for the 200hr argument, the military seems to do a fairly good job of training low-time pilots and placing them into high-performance jets.

[Colonel Sanders]

Please don't confuse military flight training
with what happens at a civilian flight school.

Also, the military are very choosy whom they
pick. Any dolt that walks through the door of
a civilian FTU gets a licence, regardless of
aptitude or ability. Learning factor of Effect.

Comparing the two is hilarious. You really think
the left seater of Colgan 3407, with all of his flunked
flight tests, would have made it through military
flight training?

Here are some choice quotes about civilian training
200hr wonders for the right seat of large aircraft:

I spent two years teaching Chinese airline pilot candidates at a very large and popular school in Arizona.

I finally quit after repeatedly being pressured/forced into signing students off on checkrides who had no business flying airplanes.

With the expansion of their aviation industry over there they are so desperate to get warm bodies in the seats that safety and proficiency is an afterthought.

We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers.

KAL has one center and Asiana has another. When I was there (2003-2008) we had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia. Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so they did hire some instructors from there.

This solution has only been partially successful but still faces ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were fired because they tried to enforce “normal” standards of performance.

By normal standards, I would include being able to master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach with 10 kt crosswind and the weather CAVOK.

I am not kidding when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason. Like this Asiana crew, it didnt’ compute that you needed to be a 1000’ AGL at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min. But, after 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my name to their training and sometimes if I just couldn’t pass someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them.

I usually busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me built.

I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it turned out he was a high-ranking captain who was the Chief Line Check pilot on the fleet I was teaching on. I found out on my next monthly trip home that KAL was not going to renew my Visa

I am horrified that the 200hr wonders here
want to become the problem described above.

In fact, it's their definition of success

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cAgh8bWZN4


I need to make bumper stickers for the 200hr
wonders here:

I WANT TO BE THE MISTAKE

Just because you dress up like a pilot, doesn't
make you one. All the guys you see wearing
leather and riding Harleys on the weekend are
NOT Hell's Angels, ok?

Go get 1000PIC, preferably with you being the
sole occupant of the aircraft.

[Shiny Side Up]

Oh come Colonel, you're stepping on people's dreams here. You know you can't do that in aviation!

[Colonel Sanders]

Ah yes, the "feelings" thing which trumps the
"not wrecking the airplane" thing. I keep
forgetting about that "New Age" priority.

I really wish there were more "Bull Meachum"s
around. Instead we have David Suzuki and
Al Gore.

[Shiny Side Up]

Ah we can't blame them. People are just getting softer, and the world we've created allows it. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on one's point of view, aviation is one of those bits of the world that still has sharp edges. Lots of the rest of the world has the corners rounded and everyone's embraced it. Now they can worry about dreams and feelings there, they have the luxury of doing so.

This part of the world though, pilots are cheap, planes aren't. Lots of people learn it the hard way.

[Colonel Sanders]

People are just getting softer

No kidding. I'd like these candy boys to spend
one day with my uncle "Trapper" Joe Chambers
of Churchill, MB.

[X-Savior]

I agree 110% the best experience a new 200 hour pilot can get is a single Engine VFR job where they can grow their skills AND MATURE mentally in relative safety of the already known VFR world they have trained in. Go get yourself 1000 pic (1-2 years at any operator). You will have the chance to make your mistakes (as we all have done in our careers) and learn from them making your self a better pilot (there is so much you have yet to learn and experience that you most likely will never read it in a book or a good story you heard from your friend who knows of someone who partially heard something about something). You will come out of that job more prepared in both skills and maturity ready for your next job (most likely right seat turbine ready to start learning complex aircraft 2 crew SOP's. You will have gained a solid judgement AND A PROPER WORK ETHIC and are a better pilot and Person because of it.

What this comes down to for all you 200 hours wonders is getting your first job. No operator wants to be the one to take the big risk on your learning the ropes and cutting your teeth at their risk. As a 200 hour pilot you feel that you have learned much and come to the professional work force ready for anything. Well the truth is you are not.... I guess the old saying goes "what you don't know can't hurt you". This is where all of the experienced pilots look at you new pilots with a much greater understanding and see the big picture.... It can be easy for you to be offended because you may not know it but you all come with some level of entitlement. I have seen it over and over again with a lot of your pilots and one thing always jumped out at me.... Yes I will say it again "LACK OF MATURITY".

[Shiny Side Up]

No kidding. I'd like these candy boys to spend
one day with my uncle "Trapper" Joe Chambers
of Churchill, MB.

Well truthfully, its not just the boys. People get really upset these days when cold hard reality steps in the way of what they percieve as their flying dreams. Its a larger symptom of everyone wants everything and they want it now. Some days it feels like everyone has forgotten the past, even the past they lived through. Some perspective is necessary, and is often lacking.

Such is the doom of men that they forget.

One of the things that's really changed, and noticable in the pilot world is the availability of instant help. It forms and rapidly changes the way people think. Everyone has a phone, and operate under the assumption they can get help immediately. This makes it ok to say be a 200 hr wonder, and take on the responsibility of a load of passengers, if something comes up, help will be there right?

I don't think a lot of people have the concept that this game is played for keeps. I recall when I was young, my Dad taught me how to play marbles. He also taught me what it meant to play for keeps, I think he still has that bag of marbles somewhere too. Memento that he trouced a six year old at marbles. You don't forget that stuff though, some times you are playing for all the marbles.

[iflyforpie]

While what you say is true Shiny, there is a certain amount of a plateau and even a degradation of things in the past few years.

From the 1950s to the 1970s, I'd say young and inexperienced pilots had it far easier. There was more general aviation around... more small planes, more airports, more industries dependent on aviation, and more training--so breaking into flying was easier. There were also more options to go into military aviation. Airlines remunerated better and were a lot more stable so it was worth the sacrifices... not killing yourself loading barrels only to wind up leaving aviation because there is no future or stuck in a place you don't want to be.

For having a phone with you all of the time? Maybe not, but there were a lot more FSSs out there--locally staffed, and when you phoned or radioed for a weather brief you often got Specialists who had decades of experience and could look out the window and give you a local outlook.

Just about every generation from the Industrial Revolution onwards has had the option of playing it safe and not getting their hands dirty or exposing themselves to the outside world... but as evidenced by the legions of applicants who are looking for a shot at a dock somewhere up north vs going to law school on daddy's dime, I don't think this crop of kids is that soft at all. I have a feeling if WWIII starts up in the Crimea... there will be no shortage of enlistments.

[Shiny Side Up]

You're right IFP, the reality is probably somewhere in the middle. I just notice the change though, especially in the world of flight training. People don't come through the door and say "I want to be a pilot, what do I have to do to achieve that?" They come and ask "I want to be a pilot, what are you going to do to make me one?" Its a certain ammount of entitlement that's the edge these days. Its not just a desire to work up to that right seat, but an expectation now that its theirs by right.

There's been a shift with the world. In flight training in particular, people are customers first, students second, and I don't think they ever get out of that mode of thinking, since that's how the rest of the world operates. It didn't used to. The "everything's amazing and nobody's happy" bit really strikes a chord.

While you may differ on the opinion on whether the people are soft or not, the ability to operate independantly is definitely lacking. They won't ever need to right? There will always be someone else to hold the controls while they take a selfie with their new white shirt and bars.

[X-Savior]

+1 ShinySideUp

But I think an issue we have also that no one has touched on here is the fact of Air School "Culture".

I have noticed most all new 200 hour wonders seem to hit culture shock once they get into the work force. I attribute this to the fact that 90% of the Flight instructors are new CPL students who recently graduated... Even if they have been instructing for the last few years. This is because they have never broken free of the hand-me-down "3rd Hand Knowledge" of what it is like to work in the industry and the reality they will face (living their lives in the shelter of air school culture).

Instead the attitude is: Come train with us, we have students moving out into the industry and hiring is Hot right now... We better get you CPL and MIFR done and it would be a great idea to get your instructor rating so you have lots of options ( we might even hire you to instruct here as soon as you are done). There is going to be massive retirement so you can expect to make it up in the Airlines very quickly.... Just make sure you make a large prepayment on your account.

I recently heard this speech at a local air school to a new student looking to start training. My jaw almost hit the ground. So I honestly feel the air schools may be one if the worst enemies in our industry because it is all about the bottom dollar!

Just make me want to puke!

[BTyyj]

Please don't confuse military flight training
with what happens at a civilian flight school.

The purpose of my post was merely to point out that in the right training environment, hand-picked low-time pilots can be trained to a very high level of competency.

As for the rest of your comment, I agree wholeheartedly.