Another student

[Colonel Sanders]

http://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments ... correctly/

Hi guys,

I'm in a private pilot program at an American Flyers school. I have 15 hours.

I feel like I'm not retaining information. I don't know if its my fault or if its the schools fault.

Yesterday we did a cross country. I've never done one before. Before we went, the CFI has the flight plan already done. He showed me how he filled it out. I didn't understand any of it. In one ear out the other, because I didn't know what he was talking about. After we were done, he gave me some flight plan sheets and told me to read the chapter in the book and fill them out. After an hour of trying to figure out how to fill this thing out, I gave up. I tried watching youtube videos, and reading the book. Neither told me step by step what to do.

We don't have any examples or practice. There are no worksheets to learn a concept. The homework is to read a chapter. Thats it. No worksheet saying "Ok so a VFR is this IFR is this". Again, going to the flight plan, I have no idea how to do this.

They never gave me a list of things I need to get. At the beginning of the program, I asked "Is there anything we need to get?" They said NO.

I come two days ago and they say "Do you have a sectional?" I say "no i don't". "Ok well you need to get one". OK. Don't you think this would have been beneficial to have BEFORE the lesson so I could maybe you know PRACTICE AT HOME?

Again to the flight plan, I'm pretty sure I need a plotter, sectional and e6b things to do it. But I don't have any of it. I can order it, but it will take 3 days to get here, and by then the lessons over, I never learned anything because there was zero practice.

I think I have a slight grasp on flying stuff. I can do s-turns, turns around a point, pattern, landing, takeoff, checklists, radios kinda (again no practice other than actually flying, had to make a sheet to know what to say based on youtube videos), stalls, slow-flight.

But then other stuff is just a pain. For example: We were doing VORs (which I kinda understand, but don't know how I'm supposed to use them) with the hood on. Its SUPER turbulent at 3000. Hes telling me to keep it at 3000 and on track while I have this hood on. I was so angry right then. I couldn't see crap, I'm supposed to maintain 3000 while each trim movement changes everything because its turbulent, and stay on the VOR track that keeps getting off course because of bumps that are turning me.

I am super frustrated. I honestly was wondering today if I should do another profession other than pilot because if this is how the rest of my training in college is, I can't do it.

CFIs here: Does this sound standard? No worksheets or examples or practice in ground school?

The manager over there said they want to limit ground school time with CFIs. I don't know if thats him trying to force me to fly more because it costs 250/hr so they make better margins or what.

I'm frusterated and I want to know if the rest of being a pilot is like this. I'm used to the regular school learning system of them explaining something to us, us practicing it, and then us actually applying the concept. It should be "Ok today where gonna learn about Radio communations. Heres a worksheet, fill in what you would say in each situation. Now were flying, and you should know approximately what to say."

Not "Ok were flying, talk to ground. Oh you don't know how? Well this is what you say -does call-. Got it?"

Anyone? Bueller?

Is this "good" flight instruction? At USD$250/hr?

[omgwereallgoingtodie]

as a student pilot myself (and a former teacher) , all I can say is "ouch" and wince spectacularly.

That's no way to learn or teach.

how can you have "done a cross country" without owning an E6b or chart?

In my opinion there's something a bit messed up when at 15 hours you are shooting VOR radials but haven't been taught proper radio work.

[Shiny Side Up]

I don't know if its my fault or if its the schools fault.

This I have to say is an interesting little bit. It does make me wonder if we're getting the whole story here. Clearly given the write up, he places the blame on the instructor and the school. Past that point we are given no instances of where he thinks he might have been part of the problem. But has it been really bad? For instance:

I can do s-turns, turns around a point, pattern, landing, takeoff, checklists, radios kinda (again no practice other than actually flying, had to make a sheet to know what to say based on youtube videos), stalls, slow-flight.

That's a reasonable list for a whole 15 hours. Especially if he's decent at landing at that point. Note what he seems to emphasize as the important thing he needs to learn is though.

One thing we're not clear on is what type of ground school he's taken. It doesn't seem clear if he knows (and most students won't know) what the difference between ground school and PGI stuff. This seems especially strange:

They never gave me a list of things I need to get. At the beginning of the program, I asked "Is there anything we need to get?" They said NO.

One of my experiences, especailly with American flight schools, is they love to up sell you on stuff. If you ask if there's anything that would be good to have, you're going to have a hard time walking out of there without your arms full. But still, did he really not ask about anything past this point? Or was he happy to operate under the assumption that everything was just going to be taken care of. Here's my money, make me a pilot. This bit:

I'm pretty sure I need a plotter, sectional and e6b things to do it. But I don't have any of it. I can order it, but it will take 3 days to get here, and by then the lessons over, I never learned anything because there was zero practice.

I have to ask whether he ordered it or not. He seems to be under the assumption that, "lesson done, will never need that again. Moving on." We're not getting the whole story though, because some where he aquired "the book" despite the school never having told him to get anything. He also really needs worksheets to spur him while during self study, not a bad thing, but I have to ask if he asked his instructor. It takes two to tango in this game after all. Lots of students I find would be more than happy (or at least not say anything) if you told them "just show up and you'll be a pilot."

Also something that's typical, is the easily frustrated bit:

After an hour of trying to figure out how to fill this thing out, I gave up.

An hour, that's it? When I was training there was stuff I was confused about, didn't understand, and I ain't no genius. But shit, I plowed through that to the wee hours of the night. What book do the Americans use BTW? If they have something similar to the FTM, it really does lay it out for you if you really bother to read it. Occasionally I've been fooled into believeing it doesn't, students are so earnest in their claims that nothing is there, I have to read it again myself, and there it is!

There's two sides to this story. I've been on both sides. From his post, there are things that bother me from both sides.

The school's issues.

1) Complex stuff is introduced before it's warranted. The nav excersise at 15 hours, work on the VOR at this time. This stinks of a bored instructor, who should be just teaching something simpler at these times. Hard to say though. He does mention he's at a flight college, is it some sort of accelerated program?

2) Not enough PGI time.

3) No syllabus for the training? A distict difference between schools up here and down there.

The student's issues

1) Needs his hand held. I don't see a lot of initiative here.

2) Should have done some research before he started. After you start spending money, its a little late to ask "how's this supposed to go?"

3) Not sure if they're communicating to the instructor the issues they complain about here. Students can put the brakes on training too.

I don't know anymore. There are bad schools and bad instructors out there, but there's customers who let them get away with it. If its any help to the students, its frustrating from both ends.

[photofly]

Yes indeed... where's the ground school in all this?

Limiting ground time with the instructor is the other side of the coin of students skipping ground school because their instructor will explain it to them all for free between flights. If the instructor is billing his ground time correctly I can't see why a school would want him or her to cut it back.

[Shiny Side Up]

Ground time is one of the really sticky points about flight training. There are undoubted benefits to it, though everyone hates it. As a CFI I find you have to push instructors to make sure they're doing it adequately with the flying. You also want to make sure students aren't getting charged for BS sessions, though to be fair, that's a two player game. I've tried to get through some material with students before, and they really want to chat about the latest Mayday episode instead. With students some times its like pulling teeth to get them to commit to it, and lots are really reluctant to pay for it. Students get really upset if they come out and don't go flying, in spite of the good it might do them sometimes. Everyone wants to get in the airplane right away. A milker can take real advantage of this, since I've seen students who think its normal to bring the FTM to go over stuff in the plane. Really really not cool.

As the instructor, and the CFI though, I always have to look at these kinds of stories with a grain of salt. There have been countless times where a student will get frustrated, despite the instructor's best efforts, and the words "I've never seen that before, you guys missed that!" comes out of their mouthes easily. As an instructor you learn to keep reams of paper and records. I've said this more times than I can count:

"That's funny you say you've never seen that before, let me check my ground school record. Hmmm. Let's see, third Saturday class of the July 2012 PPL ground school... oh look, there's your name on my attendance sheet. That's your name in my writing... Oh look, we went through navigation and flight planning that day. I know what I put on the board that day, did you take notes? No notes? Your kids ate them? I see... "

In what I just figured is now 15 years of doing this instructing thing, only one student who has been confused about something, has actually brought forth their notes they took. Many of course who took notes weren't confused, but of all the students who've had problems, only one actually had notes, and surprisingly enough it was almost identical (and in her script, way neater) to what I had put on the board, in her case, almost two years prior. Notes kept and used well. Needless to say the issue was understood with a short clarification. I think I cried when I seen that someone had actually wrote something down.

Bah, that's not true, I never cry.

[zulutime]

I'm not an instructor so I can't provide any insight from that end. My son went through a college aviation program here in Canada though. From everything I saw in terms of how they handled the lesson plans (ground and air) they were always detailed in their approach and expectations. In fact, rarely did the student ever show up for a lesson without having to prepare on their own beforehand. Every student knew exactly what they needed in terms of "gear" (i.e. maps, E6B, etc). the sylabus laid it all out.

Like one of the earlier posts suggested, perhaps we're not getting the whole story here. I recall going through some ground classes with my instructor during my instrument rating many years ago. I had a hard time grasping the concept of the NDB. After our ground class I went home and spent not minutes, not hours but over time likely days reading, re-reading, asking, drawing, etc. Finally, it all clicked. now it seems so simple. Maybe what's missing here is the student's passion which usually equates to hard work which usually equates to success.

I wish him luck though. Sounds like he'll need it if any of what he states is true. Maybe time to look for another school......

[Big Pistons Forever]

http://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments ... correctly/

Hi guys,

I'm in a private pilot program at an American Flyers school. I have 15 hours.

I feel like I'm not retaining information. I don't know if its my fault or if its the schools fault.

Yesterday we did a cross country. I've never done one before. Before we went, the CFI has the flight plan already done. He showed me how he filled it out. I didn't understand any of it. In one ear out the other, because I didn't know what he was talking about. After we were done, he gave me some flight plan sheets and told me to read the chapter in the book and fill them out. After an hour of trying to figure out how to fill this thing out, I gave up. I tried watching youtube videos, and reading the book. Neither told me step by step what to do.

We don't have any examples or practice. There are no worksheets to learn a concept. The homework is to read a chapter. Thats it. No worksheet saying "Ok so a VFR is this IFR is this". Again, going to the flight plan, I have no idea how to do this.

They never gave me a list of things I need to get. At the beginning of the program, I asked "Is there anything we need to get?" They said NO.

I come two days ago and they say "Do you have a sectional?" I say "no i don't". "Ok well you need to get one". OK. Don't you think this would have been beneficial to have BEFORE the lesson so I could maybe you know PRACTICE AT HOME?

Again to the flight plan, I'm pretty sure I need a plotter, sectional and e6b things to do it. But I don't have any of it. I can order it, but it will take 3 days to get here, and by then the lessons over, I never learned anything because there was zero practice.

I think I have a slight grasp on flying stuff. I can do s-turns, turns around a point, pattern, landing, takeoff, checklists, radios kinda (again no practice other than actually flying, had to make a sheet to know what to say based on youtube videos), stalls, slow-flight.

But then other stuff is just a pain. For example: We were doing VORs (which I kinda understand, but don't know how I'm supposed to use them) with the hood on. Its SUPER turbulent at 3000. Hes telling me to keep it at 3000 and on track while I have this hood on. I was so angry right then. I couldn't see crap, I'm supposed to maintain 3000 while each trim movement changes everything because its turbulent, and stay on the VOR track that keeps getting off course because of bumps that are turning me.

I am super frustrated. I honestly was wondering today if I should do another profession other than pilot because if this is how the rest of my training in college is, I can't do it.

CFIs here: Does this sound standard? No worksheets or examples or practice in ground school?

The manager over there said they want to limit ground school time with CFIs. I don't know if thats him trying to force me to fly more because it costs 250/hr so they make better margins or what.

I'm frusterated and I want to know if the rest of being a pilot is like this. I'm used to the regular school learning system of them explaining something to us, us practicing it, and then us actually applying the concept. It should be "Ok today where gonna learn about Radio communations. Heres a worksheet, fill in what you would say in each situation. Now were flying, and you should know approximately what to say."

I call Bullshit.

[Rookie50]

Yeah, I don't know. Yes there are questionable instructors -- but I figure a lot of lazy students.

I wanted to jump in the airplane as much as anyone ASAP.

But I also studied my FTGU, and FTM, cover to cover, so much it started to fall apart. Same with the IPM book for the IFR, and weather command manual ( need to review that one again -- weather the most complex of topics). I played with my flight simulator, vor tracking simulator, listened to live AtC for comm.....there are so many resources. I also was prepared and asked a million questions, and still do ( of my mentor pilots -- perhaps over weather decisions).

[Shiny Side Up]

I call Bullshit.

I don't. this student is relating the story as he believes it. In my experience, before someone gets up the courage to express their frustration online or in some other similar venue (for example I get a lot of phone calls of this nature, not usually about my own operation, though sometimes) they've rolled the story around in their mind a long time, each time making it more justifiable in their version of it. It shows in the holes that are already in his story, it never is complete by the time someone takes time to put fingers to keyboard. Some where in the back of his brain he omited crucial details that would stand against his case. the truth of the matter is likely somewhere in between.

The funny thing I always find is that the people who complain the most, and usually are the most vocal, are those who are the least wronged. The real terrible stories of flight schools gone bad, or instructor's misbehaving you usually got to pry out of people, and only usually become evident later on.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I call Bullshit.

The funny thing I always find is that the people who complain the most, and usually are the most vocal, are those who are the least wronged. The real terrible stories of flight schools gone bad, or instructor's misbehaving you usually got to pry out of people, and only usually become evident later on.

The students that also whine the most are also often the laziest and least motivated. However for you new flight instructors out there students who are unhappy will often vote with their feet. Usually by just giving up flying lessons or going elsewhere.

I just completed a PPL for a guy who left a local FTU after 33 hrs of flying. He was very unhappy with his instructor and the replacement assigned would not return his calls so after 3 weeks with nothing happening I was called in and asked as a favour to finish his training.

[Shiny Side Up]

However for you new flight instructors out there students who are unhappy will often vote with their feet. Usually by just giving up flying lessons or going elsewhere.

In a lot of cases I don't think its possible to make these people happy. Over the years I've had a lot of people who've had really strange impressions of how their flight training should be, and if it was not going to be that way, then they didn't want to do it. I actually had one student under the impression that solo time was conducted with the instructor constantly observing and giving instruction over the radio. In some cases he thought that this should entail me flying in loose formation with him to help out. Maybe he thought there might be a time where my Maverick, might be needed to talk his Cougar down. I don't know. Either way, he was bound and determined to find a school who did things the way he thought was safe, and I bid him good luck. I wonder if he found someone willing to suck the cash from his pocket to do as he thought was right.

Now that might be an extreme example (but it goes to show you how far away the edge of that bell curve is) but there's been lots of unhappy people with flight training. There also have been plenty of happy people too. Personally I prefer to concentrate on that side of the bell curve. The other side gets you down too much and make you really question why you try to share aviation with them, even while being paid at it.

[Pop n Fresh]

The only two things holding me back has always been.

- Not enough flying. I'm either broke and can't fly enough or working and can't fly enough.

- Inability to study effectively. I'm an extrovert learner and need a study group that I have never found.

[Rookie50]

I was overall very happy with my flight training. I am a type "A" personality, and so was a demanding student. I asked a lot of questions and even did extra flights not required, because to me the rating was never good enough, but I aspired to be a true professional, even likely never flying anything bigger than GA equipment.

However it goes both ways an I worked extremely hard in all my solo activities, ground and air. Therefore through all that I think I've gained much more than average experience through my (almost) 600 hours to date. I am thankful I had excellent and experienced instructors who complemented my passion to learn. I think that's all one can ask for.

I am much harder on half - efforted students and license holders who just want to jump in an SR22 and push buttons. It's not a video game people. It's an apprenticeship.

[boogs82]

That is so true for many Pop n Fresh! Now that I'm finally in an area where there's an FTU 20 minutes up the road, I don't have to book days off to go for my training. Now I can just relax. Work my shifts and go to the FTU on my four days off to get trained up. It's so much easier.

[Pop n Fresh]

By enough, I meant a couple of times in the same week.

I moved close to the FTU. The airport slowly chased them all out while I was not flying. I think if I moved to a house on the small airport I fly from now my neighbors would close the runway.