Renegotiating with Air Canada

[Mig29]

When the dust settles the smallest aircraft at AC will be a B737MAX (or A319/320 at Rouge until ultimately replaced by B737MAX). Dumbest mistake that AC could make is to add the C-series at the time that it is finally reducing equipment types in operation.

Just a few days ago, someone was telling me that when the dust really settles, AC will have nothing but 777 and 787, the rest going to Rouge, Georgian, Jazz, Sky etc......

Gilles,
Robert Milton wrote that idea in his book over a decade ago....the management that came after him to power is making that process become a reality as time passes.

[Fanblade]

I know that ACPA has already been reminded that AC has the right to park the 190's without replacement (if no layoffs), so it is clear that an attempt is being made at examining the possibility of placing the 190's at an Express carrier in exchange for other enhancements at AC (such as converting options on the 737 in to firm deliveries).

Rudder,

If the 190 remains in the fleet fewer 737's will be ordered. Your rational doesn't add up.

http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?item=727

Air Canada continues to evaluate the potential replacement of its Embraer E190 fleet with more cost efficient, larger narrowbody aircraft that are better suited to its current and future network strategy. Consistent with this strategy, the agreement with Boeing provides for Boeing to purchase up to 20 of the 45 Embraer E190 aircraft currently in Air Canada's fleet. The E190 aircraft exiting the fleet will be initially replaced with larger narrowbody leased aircraft until the airline takes delivery of the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft. The company will be reviewing various options over the next six months for the remaining 25 Embraer E190 aircraft including continuing to operate them or replacing them with a yet to be determined number of aircraft in the 100 to 150 seat range.



If the 190's can't be dumped. They will be operated. If they are operated they won't be replaced with larger narrow bodies either. But this is AC least favourable option. The preferred option is to dump all the 190's and revert to just 737's.

If the 190 continues to operate outside mainline as you suggest, there will be job losses.

And you think ACPA would agree to this? Give away a 100 seat aircraft?

You see I think despite all the growth talk everyone is starting to realize it is ASM growth. Not jobs. And most recently we are learning we are overstaffed.

Being in the bottom 300 you can probably understand my concern.

Even if by some miracle Air Canada did convince ACPA to relinquish the 190 your fooling yourself if you think AC will let you do it on your current terms. If it happens it will be used as bait. Carrot and the stick. Just like the Eagle situation. Personally I don't think that is good for anyone and embarrassing if ACPA participated once again in driving down tier 2 pay and working conditions.

I have asked on this forum before on this subject. How low are you willing to go to get the 190? Because ultimately that is what this will end up being about. If not now when your CPA comes up for renewal. Anything that ACPA relinquishes will eventually go to the lowest bidder. We would be crazy to willingly participate.

WJ will just respond in kind with Encore. This needs to stop. Not accelerate.

[Black Cat]

Not sure if its relevant but the e190 is listed as an approved type on sky regional OC

[Stinky]

Additionally, the pilots are already typed on it and do all the initial and recurrent training on it.

[volez]

Would not make it more sense for Jazz to operate over 75 seats aircrafts ?

[DH772]

How so?

[AllClutch]

Unless forced upon them I don't think the ACPA will ever cede any of there +75 scope,
It would be in no way in thier favor and they definitely won't do it out of compassion or solidarity for Jazz, nor should they be compelled to.
Further to that if in fact CR manages to do something about the scope why would he award that flying or for that matter any additional flying to Jazz at all? He's demonstrated time and again that he wants to diversify the CPA flying and Skyregional has demonstrated that they can fly the EMB, only cheaper than Jazz could.
From a sense point of view I understand your poin, larger airplanes means a lower CASM, but by that logic why not transfer the 777 to Jazz
I think the more likely scenario is that either the ACPA losses the scope in arbitration or trades it for a 10-15% wage increase in 2016, AC transfers the EMB leases to Skyregional and CR continues with his plan to just put up with Jazz until 2020. Also I think by that point AC will be paying out penalties to chorus for insufficient block hours so they can transfer that flying across to another tier 2 in effort to get them ramped up and ready to go for New Year's Day 2021.
I don't think Jazz will be left with nothing but on that day it will be a much different looking company than it is now, I assure you of that.

[volez]

When you say a much different company, what do you intend to say ?

What about the sustainability of their pension plan ? Another chimera ?

[Ewequia]

Brace yourself ALLCLUTCH. Wish I could see your face when you find out what's actually happening!

[Localizer]

Ok ... I'll bite ... what's actually happening?

[Fanblade]

Yes do tell.

Loc,

Have your views changed about the college since the signing of FCALP. Did I get that right? Federation of Canadian Airline Pilots.

Seems to me the college has decided to be apolitical, has abandoned licensing, and had no vision to bring the groups together under one banner and one voice.

I thought the college was supposed to fill this void? But they have moved in another direction. Instead a new body has been formed to fill it.

So with my membership renewal on the near horizon.....is the college relevant now?

[Localizer]

Fanblade,

The college is too far behind to combat the current issues before us, we have to hope our (ACPA/ALPA) association leaders can be reasonable and realistic to the current landscape. I believe our only option as a group (AC, Jazz, SR, GGN) is to form one list, then close the door to outsourcing anymore work. Will it be easy? No. Will it hurt? Maybe. Will we stop the downward trend? If done right, yes. I hope we've learned from our history by putting a nail in the coffin of the past and move forward.

"By uniting we stand, by dividing we fall"

[Fanblade]

Fanblade,

The college is too far behind to combat the current issues before us, we have to hope our (ACPA/ALPA) association leaders can be reasonable and realistic to the current landscape. I believe our only option as a group (AC, Jazz, SR, GGN) is to form one list, then close the door to outsourcing anymore work. Will it be easy? No. Will it hurt? Maybe. Will we stop the downward trend? If done right, yes. I hope we've learned from our history by putting a nail in the coffin of the past and move forward.

"By uniting we stand, by dividing we fall"

Agreed. Thing is AC would need to be forced to do this. Contracting out to whom ever they please has taken them years to achieve, and is the backbone of their regional feed strategy. I doubt they will hand it back with ease. Practically speaking that horse looks to have already left the barn IMO.
Focusing on something realistically achievable seems to me to be the best route. A guaranteed flow through might be more realistic. Kind of like the AMR offer to the Eagle pilots. Yeah I know they said no. They may pay a large price for that.


What I was getting at was this. Has the college become irrelevant with the start of FCAP? Have you guys been given anything on this new body?

[teacher]

It is not irrelevant because

1) there are so many pilots with no union representation that make up the backbone of our profession. Unions and associations working together is great but does nothing for the up and comers or those working outside of organized labour.

2) union focus is on wages and working conditions primarily. The College goals are far more diverse and will hopefully deal with issues that shape a pilot's career from early on and make changes to our profession from the bottom up.

[teacher]

Sorry double post

[Fanblade]

It is not irrelevant because

1) there are so many pilots with no union representation that make up the backbone of our profession. Unions and associations working together is great but does nothing for the up and comers or those working outside of organized labour.

2) union focus is on wages and working conditions primarily. The College goals are far more diverse and will hopefully deal with issues that shape a pilot's career from early on and make changes to our profession from the bottom up.

Teacher,

How exactly. This new group is already helping those same groups with access to LRD and legal advice. The group plans to lobby as a group. Advocate for the wider pilot group.

IMO it looks like someone got fed up waiting for the college to find direction and traction.

I'm having trouble seeing where the college now “fits".

[volez]

Do I perceive a new twist in the College intention ?

[teacher]

This group seems to me as more of an agreement to work together IF consensus is achieved. I have no doubt that if there is an issue that benefits one group more than the other, parties will opt to drop out defeating the purpose if working together.

The idea of this federation is great when working towards combating mutual issues like foreign pilots. It presents a united front against problems facing pilots. However, what will it do for those pilots who are greater in number that do not belong to ALPA, ACPA or any of the other pilot unions or associations?

We complain on this board about pilots stabbing each other in the back for jobs. Young up and comers doing whatever it takes regardless of the consequences to our profession. Who is going to support, mentor and guide them? I've been told before and it's been stated here that unions work hard for those that pay dues but not here to support those that don't.

I think there is a place for both organizations. No college will be there for all pilots but mostly help those that are not in an airline. This federation from the sounds of it is a group of unions, NOT a standalone organization working together towards common goals.

[Fanblade]

Valid points but from a practical stand point who is going to pay for this?

The college doesn't have the money to lobby, advocate, or provide any legal or labor advise. They have already said they won't be into licensing. They have no intention to lobby WAWCON. The college does not have the support of the unions to represent their interests in areas that affect them and the college has shown interest. Do you honestly believe ACPA or ALPA would have allowed the college to represent ALL pilots at something like the CARAC process? Not a chance.

So the college has been reduced to a mentorship for new pilots? That's not a college of professionals.

Like I said. IMO it appears great things were expected from the college. People are now starting to get fed up waiting, and are finding other ways to fill the gaps the colleges mandate was anticipated to fill.

These changes will impact the colleges relevance. The next thing you know the colleges membership will start to drop.

Which brings me full circle. My membership renews next month. Should I bother?

[teacher]

Yes, I think you should renew.

Unions will work together to put up a common front when their interests are being met and walk away when they are not. Maybe there is fear that the College may walk on union turf hence the lack of support by ALPA, who knows. Either way, this federation will battle certain big issues but do nothing to solve the major underlying problems in our profeesion. Will the College? It's to early to tell. But to give up on it so early in it's creation is to make certain that the issues that have plagued our profession for decades will continue and I know for a fact that if we let this College fizzle out we will be facing the same problems for decades to come.

WAWCON is important but the long term solution to WAWCON degredation is, I fear, not something unions can fix.

A simple question would be is GGN, Sky Regional and Encore pilot groups involved in this Federation. If not than there proves my point.

[Localizer]

Fanblade,

A preferential hiring system, or flow through really isn't enough, the reality is one list and I do think the timing is right .. a few stars are lining up. I believe AC wants to expand the Rouge fleet by adding more or all of the Airbus's, there is potential leverage available, some would argue this would be a waste of that leverage but I think most people who objectively look at the situation would disagree with that thinking. ACPA pilots are on the losing end of most company changes, getting all pilots on one list and closing the out-sourcing language would allow opportunities to put all flying under one banner .. whether that be ACPA or ALPA.

[Fanblade]

Your suggesting we allow more mainline jobs to go to Rouge, in exchange for a single list?

Your kidding.......right?

How about you guys offer up 30-40% pay cuts for a single list instead? In being sarcastic but I'm sure you get my point.

Outsourcing is the backbone of AC's regional diversification strategy. Currently it has become a high priority focus. They have worked like a dog to get it. Just as it's about to pay off for them, you think they will even entertain the idea of letting it go? That horse is out of the barn. Long long gone.

The best approach will be one that is achievable my friend.

For the exact reasons you fear further outsourcing, AC sees a lot of value. The good ole days are gone. We need a solution that works within today's reality. This is something every AC union and every AC sub contracted has or will face. As Calin put it. Everyone will contribute to cost reduction. No exceptions.

We already gave at the office. Now it's your turn. Blunt yes. But if you don't see it? Your not listening to what is coming out of the head shed.

Even if you could convince ACPA pilots to accept more pain for the greater good. Personally I think enough has been inflicted. But even if you could I don't think AC management will even entertain the idea. Nor do I think ACPA has the leverage or will to “make" AC entertain the idea.

[Localizer]

Fanblade,

I fear you won't have much choice about rouge .. The arbitrated settlement already forged that path and the fact rouge now flies mainline routes that are not vacation destinations is proof of where they're heading. Why isn't ACPA challenging that by the way?

I think both pilot groups have given a pound or two of flesh .. But I don't believe any of us will ever give enough for the corporate suite, the only variable cost is labour .. fuel, parts etc are fixed.

Rouge is the mainline version of diversification .. We're all in the same boat..

[Fanblade]

Fanblade,

I fear you won't have much choice about rouge .. The arbitrated settlement already forged that path and the fact rouge now flies mainline routes that are not vacation destinations is proof of where they're heading. Why isn't ACPA challenging that by the way?

I think both pilot groups have given a pound or two of flesh .. But I don't believe any of us will ever give enough for the corporate suite, the only variable cost is labour .. fuel, parts etc are fixed.

Rouge is the mainline version of diversification .. We're all in the same boat..

Yeah....and this provides relevance to your claim that ACPA will become a philanthropist organization as a result???

I'd say quite the contrary. ACPA will be inwardly focused as a result. Using leverage to treat the wounded.

Could it be that ACPA is politely listening but already knows what the corps response will be?

AC won't give up contracting out. Think about it. On one of Rudders post he said Jazz operates over 5billion ASM's for AC. Impressive and I will take it as fact. That means for every penny drop in CASM over those 5 Billion ASM's, AC will save 50mill.

How is anyone going to compete with that? No one is. Encore has sealed this deal.

You need to get your costs down to compete. But beyond that, Jazz needs to reduce the amount of people at the top end of the pay scale. That is the legacy regional problem. Even when they match they are still too expensive. Comair and Eagle. Its why I suggested flow through as a way to reduce people at the top end of the pay scale. I know Jazz is offering early retirement packages, but that only goes so far.

As for the rest.

What route is Rouge operating that isn't primarily leisure?

[TheStig]

As Calin put it. Everyone will contribute to cost reduction. No exceptions.

We already gave at the office. Now it's your turn. Blunt yes. But if you don't see it? Your not listening to what is coming out of the head shed.

I believe his exact words were "We want you to share our pain."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... /?page=all