Calm Air and De icing

[Minimums]

Whatever. When you have your ass seated with WS, jazz, AC it's easy to shout out the law is the law.
I worked in a de ice center where the only aircraft coming were aircanada airplanes (air canada festival) for almost inexistant frost, where even american crj wouldn't bother to come or other countries airlines.

If I go de-ice for type 1 and 4 with trucks, the flight will probably delayed cancelled because it won't be making money or it will be a loss of money.


Get yourself up north in a turboprop aircraft where de icing services do not exist. I'll watch you go say the law is the law.

Impact ice making a thin broken non existant layer on leading edge? Rarely removed.

It's a good reflexion thou.. But sometime no hangar, no de icing truck...

I don't need an airline seat to shout out the law. I have been, currently, and will continue to do so. I worked in the north long enough to know what goes on, what works, and what doesn't. Standing your ground is a good way to start. Won't make you a company favorite, but it'll earn you respect, from both yourself and your peers.

If you're to afraid to go for type 1 or type 4 because your flight will be delayed or cancelled, than you're part of the problem. If your companies questions you, state the f*in law. Can't argue with that, and if they do, phone transport and let me know what's going on, that'll change the tune real quick. If you loose your job because of it, find yourself a lawyer, a union rep and a reporter. I know guys who have done it, and I'm proud to call them my friends. They went through some tough times in the process, but all are working again for better, more reputable companies.

Its called growing a pair.

There are answers to the problem. Not all involve a $100,000 piece of equipment.

[CpnCrunch]

Scary stuff. Looks like Bill has a difficult job ahead of him, unless all the posters above are trolls.

[esp803]

I keep saying that the north attracts a certain type of pilots who will make a career up there.

Airmanship Police, This is the dumbest thing I have ever read on this site, followed closely by several other of your comments. Have you ever worked in the north? I do mean the real north here, not NWO, not northern Manitoba. The north attracts certain types eh? I was born in the north, does that automatically make me a dangerous pilot?

In my experience the north does attract a certain type of person, they are generally very skilled at what they do. Speaking from personal experience, I've operated Caravans in under 1500' strips, 206's in under 1000', flown floats at alarmingly high density altitudes on one way lakes, have had to deice my airplane after landings in some of those "bush camps" with little more then a stick and time. I know several of the people that you frequently try to belittle on this site, and I would trust every single one of them with my life. The north offers some of the most challenging, fun, exciting, varying flying there is out there.

I suppose the get er done me tality is still aive and well in the north

No more then it is in the south, in fact I'd say it happens less in the north. It's been my experience that crews in the north are generally more experienced and do tell the managers to F*#& off when it's needed. I've seen the scariest dispatches well south of 60, by pilots who are itching to break in.

company you work for operate a sched to some remote camp,

Sched? Are you kidding me? Most of the places I fly are purely on a charter basis. There is no equipment in offstrip flying. Some places I fly ONCE a season... does that warrant having a deice truck flown in via Kamov?

If there is forcasted icing you don't HAVE to go. If you know you will put yourself in a situation where u will have to break the law to get out

I've flown many northern planes that are certified for flight into known icing... that means we can do those trips when the weather isn't 40sm and no ceiling. If I need to deice, I do, sometimes manually with a pogo stick.

Don't judge us "northern pilots" until you have come and flown with us, SOME of you southern wankers really piss me off with your ignorance.

E

[arctic_slim]

Wow this is becoming a north vs south battle haha.

[fish4life]

Whoever said Bill has quite a battle, well I have done medevacs and seen / been on calm air airplanes and they seem to deice or not land if they picked up ice from what I've experienced so I think bungee may have had a rogue pilot if there was actually ice being picked up. So I think this isn't a Calm Air issue. As for everyone else not every destination has a central de-ice facility I honestly would like to see manufacturers certify take off charts with minimal leading edge ice, most pilots know a "little" leading edge ice won't have any effect as there old beat up boots which are less smooth than a layer of thin clear ice that actually makes the wing more streamlined. I'm not talking about guys who talk / brag about taking off with 1/2 inch + of leading edge ice or ice on top of the wing which IMHO is retarded I'm just talking about the super thing layers of leading edge ice. Let the debate begin.

[Jean-Pierre]

they seem to deice or not land if they picked up ice from what I've experienced

Oh please. So they don't land for 8 month of the year? Do they carry a 30 foot ladder on board to deice horizontal stab when they land up north? Has anyone seen calm air pilots scrambling up these with a piss pack before they take off from the reserve? Because if not then they are taking off with ice on a regular basis. A highwing 705 aircraft with a t-tail on top of that and transport canada clean wing concept are not compatible if you are landing in the middle of nowhere. Anyone that believe otherwise is naive or they bury their head in the sand like transport does.

[boxcut]

It's leading edge ice, when one deplanes you can also get a good look at it. It's not noticed by the pilots sitting up front in the cozy cockpit on a dark night.

Calm Air flies ATRs, you deplane from the rear, how are you getting a good look at the leading edge of the wing? You shouldn't be anywhere near the front of the wing/prop for that matter. And the pilots can see the leading edge of the wing from the cockpit, they can also see the prop hub, and they are required to check the roll spoilers too, which are painted orange to aid in identifying contamination. While flying, the ATR has a 'mock wing' mounted just outside the cockpit that demonstrates current ice buildup as well. To say that pilots don't notice leading edge ice is to be uninformed about the subject.

Some of the pilots do a walk around, most don't.

I love generalizations! It's an unsupported statement that is biased towards your argument! It's also a great way to slander Northern Pilots who are on the whole very cautions and acutely aware of icing dangers.

Sure the plane will fly with leading edge ice, but it's the law....de- ice. Sure it will make you run a little late. As agreed this is a northeren problem we see on medi vac and charters all the time.

If a plane requires a de-ice, it gets one. If the plane picks up icing going into a station, and there is no adequate de-ice (or as is more often the case, anti-ice) available, it usually goes missed. Holdover times being what they are, you see a lot of misses in precipitation in the winter months.

If you as a passenger are concerned, notify the flight attendant who will notify the captain. If you are really concerned, Calm Air's chief pilot already posted several ways of getting in contact with him. Maybe you should take pictures or something, so that you have proof as well.

[timel]

I don't need an airline seat to shout out the law. I have been, currently, and will continue to do so. I worked in the north long enough to know what goes on, what works, and what doesn't. Standing your ground is a good way to start. Won't make you a company favorite, but it'll earn you respect, from both yourself and your peers.

My company has excellent safety values. And no pilots will go if they don't feel it's right or safe.

If you're to afraid to go for type 1 or type 4 because your flight will be delayed or cancelled, than you're part of the problem. If your companies questions you, state the f*in law. Can't argue with that, and if they do, phone transport and let me know what's going on, that'll change the tune real quick. If you loose your job because of it, find yourself a lawyer, a union rep and a reporter. I know guys who have done it, and I'm proud to call them my friends. They went through some tough times in the process, but all are working again for better, more reputable companies.

I will try everything to avoid de-icing truck including a hangar and spray of type 4 before living because contrary to airline budgets, a 703-704 commuter can hardly afford, and if we have to go it will be at the client cost on the charter.

Its called growing a pair.

I think human brain has been giving the ability to think and judge, nobody up there wants to die.
When people say the law is the law it makes me laugh. Means that out of the law you can't produce any judgement of what you think is right or wrong.

I'll let you know an other great transport law analysis.
One of our training captain in an audit did argue with transport inspectors about duty hours in 703-704, how on a well optimized scheduling you could burn a pilot in a way he would be tired anough not to do his job good. Of course you can refuse to go or call sick...

But you know what transport inspectors said :"well it's the law ... So it's like that"

[Illya Kuryakin]

It doesn't matter if it makes the airplane faster. It doesn't matter if it doesn't affect the way it fly's. It doesn't matter if it puts undo stress of the crews to have an de ice. It doesn't matter if the rule is stupid. Law is the law. If you want to change it, MAN UP, call TC. Write letters, make phone calls. Talk to your politician, start a petition. Don't be calling out others on a public forum as a source to output on your thoughts on the matter. Deal with it like a professional.

On a personal note, I hope all the old drivers get caught with their pants down before they retire and helped into an early retirement with a nice fine to boot. This stuff doesn't fly in the south, and it shouldn't fly in the north. Time for TC to get off its butt, go secretly fly aboard some of these airlines and see for themselves what goes on. I know an airline that would be out a lot of senior drivers if they did so.

Spoken like the self righteous type who never rolls through a stop sign, or drives 5kph over the limit.
It's 03:00, you're in Upper Armpit MB. You've picked up leading edge ice on your mighty twin turbo prop. Building is locked. You going to shut it down? Or, are you going to roll through that pesky stop sign? Do you have ANY common sense? Ball's in your court. What ya gonna do? Bad boy, bad boy?
Illya

[CpnCrunch]

Spoken like the self righteous type who never rolls through a stop sign, or drives 5kph over the limit.
It's 03:00, you're in Upper Armpit MB. You've picked up leading edge ice on your mighty twin turbo prop. Building is locked. You going to shut it down? Or, are you going to roll through that pesky stop sign? Do you have ANY common sense? Ball's in your court. What ya gonna do? Bad boy, bad boy?
Illya

I guess it depends what other rules you break. Not carrying the very latest CFS at night is one thing, but do you also take off above max gross? Or keep flying into below VFR weather? Or bust minimums by 100 feet (or 1000 feet, as in a recent accident). It seems that all of these things pop up regularly in the accident reports. It's usually MB or BC rather than up north that we see the accidents as far as I can tell. Perhaps up north they just know how to break the rules and get away with it (i.e. not make a hole in the ground) better.

[FurHat]

Not carrying the very latest CFS at night is one thing, but do you also take off above max gross?

I would argue that almost everyone who has taken off at gross on paper has taken off overweight. "Standard" weights are hardly standard, especially when summer supposedly starts in March. Many airlines use standard weights for crew which are completely unrealistic (350. Lbs at one turbo prop operator I'm aware of...that supposedly also includes their flight bags).

I guess we need some of these de-ice experts to tell us which laws need to be followed to the letter and which ones we can let slide a bit.

[Illya Kuryakin]

The subject is de-ice. Do you all have ADD?
Illya

[timel]

I mean from the points of views getting here if you guys have a strip of extra grease on your wing do you refuse to take off due to wing contamination? Or if you have a left over of type 4 on airlerons from your previous do you guys go de-icing in florida?
Cause technicaly if not you are breaking law, I mean do you walk with a broom in your arses?

[CpnCrunch]

The subject is de-ice. Do you all have ADD?
Illya

Nope. My point is that if you're deliberately breaking the law by taking off with ice on the wings, do you also break the law in other ways? And if so how much is acceptable? It was you who said it was okay to break the law a bit. No need for personal attacks.

[Minimums]

Spoken like the self righteous type who never rolls through a stop sign, or drives 5kph over the limit.
It's 03:00, you're in Upper Armpit MB. You've picked up leading edge ice on your mighty twin turbo prop. Building is locked. You going to shut it down? Or, are you going to roll through that pesky stop sign? Do you have ANY common sense? Ball's in your court. What ya gonna do? Bad boy, bad boy?
Illya

Have I done things wrong? Sure. Am I perfect? No. Do I know where to draw the line, you bet. As you get older, you learn a thing or two. Learning not to get into a situation is priority number one. If I have to go to Armpit MB at 03:00, I want to know before I even leave the ground if I have the ability to remove said leading edge ice if it looks like there is a chance I'll pick it up on the way in. Do I have the ability to deice? If I do, great, pack up and lets jet. If not, what options do I have? Call out for deice? Not likely in Armpit MB. Hanger? Again, not likely. Wait for weather to improve? Possible alternative. Cancel flight if WX doesn't improve enough to prevent ice on arrival? Also possible alternative. Building is locked? Who'd a thought that would be true in Armpit MB at 03:00? Maybe you should have considered that before so eagerly jumping aboard and blasting off into a situation you can no longer control. Any common sense? Don't think I'm the one lacking it.

[Minimums]

But you know what transport inspectors said :"well it's the law ... So it's like that"

Yup. Try and say whatever you need to tell yourself you've justified your actions, be it saving money, time, made the CP like you, because the law lacks common sense, whatever you think.

Come down to the black and white, its your ass.

[GyvAir]

Some people posting on this thread truly sound like they're living in a bubble. I'd like to think that a captain at the ATR level (and I'm not talking an FSX captain) would be capable of exercising good judgement with regards to wing contamination. Is there going to be a similar thread in a month or two, come bug season? Going missed if the black flies were thicker than forecast?

[Maynard]

This is an entertaining read, and it seems like someone else said, lots are living in a bubble. It's not just up north, guaranteed every 703/704 operator in Ontario does the exact same thing. I would argue that the coefficient of friction of the thin layer of ice on the leading edge would be less than the boot itself. To think this would disrupt the airflow to the point that it separates the boundary layer at all, is amusing. Flame away, yeehaw cowboy!

[ettw]

If impact snow was that bad aerodynamically, we'd all be flying a/c with hot leading edges.

Boots don't do much for impact snow and we don't fall the last 5' to the runway when we flair with impact snow on the leading edge so I'll suggest that I'd be just fine with boarding an ATR or equivalent with some impact snow on the leading edge.

I've never heard the term "PR spray". I'm more familiar with the term term "de-icing" and "anti icing".

ETTW

[Illya Kuryakin]

Sure, Minimums..want to borrow my shovel? Or, do you always use your own. What an absolute crock.
Illya