Canadian north to buy first air

[tbaylx]

Good bye Canadian North and good riddance.

Palebird why don't you go drink some Skydrol.

[bmc]

This will create a monopoly on a jet operations to the north. Northerners will not be happy about it as they will suspect higher airfares and will be more critical of the service provided. This provides a good opportunity for competition to enter the marketplace. We've seen it before.

I wonder if Brock or Steve will be the president and CEO going forward?

[boxcut]

Good bye Canadian North and good riddance.

Lols, that's a funny, poorly informed opinion.

Northerners will not be happy about it as they will suspect higher airfares and will be more critical of the service provided. This provides a good opportunity for competition to enter the marketplace.

Northerners have zero understanding of economic reality, so them being critical of service provided makes me laugh. Northerners should try flying in the South sometime. Right now they get two free checked bags (70 lbs each), and a meal, with a ticket. The level of service to a 3000 person community is insane too. How many Hamlets in the south get served by two 737s a day? Oh, and of course, 737s going to gravel strips, with no real navaids, in wx that is the worst in Canada, and has the worst forecasting as well.

There's a reason there is no real competition from AC or Westjet for flying in the north, it's not a profitable operation in any sense. Ticket prices are high in the north compared to the south because its the only way to maintain a break even operation.

[teacher]

There's a reason there is no real competition from AC or Westjet for flying in the north, it's not a profitable operation in any sense. Ticket prices are high in the north compared to the south because its the only way to maintain a break even operation

Well said. AC tried with Jazz service to Iqaluit but it wasn't worth it.

[fish4life]

http://www.nunatsiaqonline.ca/stories/a ... %20target=

That's a link to them pulling out, these flights are paid for by being combi's so it makes sense AC wasn't making money on it.

[FICU]

This will create a monopoly on a jet operations to the north. Northerners will not be happy about it as they will suspect higher airfares and will be more critical of the service provided. This provides a good opportunity for competition to enter the marketplace. We've seen it before.

I'm sure the federal competition committee will have something to say about it before this deal is approved. Ideally, with solidified scheduled operations up north, the customers will get better value.

[thirdtimecharm]

There's a reason there is no real competition from AC or Westjet for flying in the north, it's not a profitable operation in any sense. Ticket prices are high in the north compared to the south because its the only way to maintain a break even operation

Well said. AC tried with Jazz service to Iqaluit but it wasn't worth it.

There is a big difference between being a third carrier and the second one.

The total YOW-YFB market per day is about 90 pax each way on average (throughout the week). Hard to fill a 2nd 737 but something like a RJ could work?

The other big change since AC pulled out was the cargo market crapped out. Each position is now worth roughly 1.5 paying passengers (one way). And the cost of carrying this cargo is much much higher than the cost of carrying 1.5 passengers. An all pax operation would actually have a competitive advantage because it wouldn't have the ungodly infrastructure costs in YFB.

[thirdtimecharm]

This will create a monopoly on a jet operations to the north. Northerners will not be happy about it as they will suspect higher airfares and will be more critical of the service provided. This provides a good opportunity for competition to enter the marketplace. We've seen it before.

I'm sure the federal competition committee will have something to say about it before this deal is approved. Ideally, with solidified scheduled operations up north, the customers will get better value.

The Competition Bureau would only have to be shown the financials of both operators. They won't stop two money losing carriers from merging, especially when the NewNorthernAirline can claim that they will freeze or lower prices.

[rudder]

Do not kid yourselves - despite what they are saying publicly it is inevitable that capacity will be reduced and pricing will rise. Having said that, if one of the two current players were to fold then the same would be true anyway.

Regardless, the merged enterprise must get out of the facets of the business that continually lose money. That may include destinations, routes, equipment, or product.

This consolidation was inevitable. Hope that the resulting ownership/management is solid.

[tbaylx]

Prices are going to rise for sure. Right now there are two airlines selling seats below costs in order to try and poach customers. It isn't sustainable, not desirable. Prices should reflect economic reality and allow an airline to operate profitably (within reasonable margins). That will be what happens if and when a merger happens. A healthy northern airline is in everyone's best interests.

[FICU]

The Competition Bureau would only have to be shown the financials of both operators. They won't stop two money losing carriers from merging, especially when the NewNorthernAirline can claim that they will freeze or lower prices.

One of the companies is doing very well and not losing money. That is not what the merge is about. The feds will have to be shown that a new solidified airline will not place further burden on the paying customer.

[55+]

Good bye Canadian North and good riddance.

Palebird why don't you go drink some Skydrol.

I flew with them (CDN North) several few years back and thought that airline to be rather nice. One time,I was in YZF heading down to YEG and decided to head to the airport early for something to do and perhaps watch any activity. I checked in and went for a snack and a beer. Was sitting down when I got paged, so went to the counter to see what was up. A delightful young lady informed there was an earlier departure and I was welcome, just go down to departure and she would call down to advise I was heading on that earlier flight. No problem with my baggage either, also hot meal and a real cup of coffee to boot.

Don't think that kind of service was available south, then again it was some time ago.

[palebird]

I love Skydrol. The fact that these two ( Canadian North and First Air) could not carry on the status quo was pretty obvious for anyone willing to open their eyes. The fact that Canadian North owns nothing and made numerous cash calls to Nunasi in the past tells the innocent bystander something. Cancel all the leases and wind her up. I suspect First Air will come out on top. Fact that there will be many people made redundant.

[tbaylx]

I love Skydrol. The fact that these two ( Canadian North and First Air) could not carry on the status quo was pretty obvious for anyone willing to open their eyes. The fact that Canadian North owns nothing and made numerous cash calls to Nunasi in the past tells the innocent bystander something. Cancel all the leases and wind her up. I suspect First Air will come out on top. Fact that there will be many people made redundant.

If by cash calls you mean one of the only Nunasi operations making money and bailing out the ill advised barge routine then yeah. 5T is profitable, 7F is bleeding out. 5T has been hiring as fast as they can, adding airframes and expanding. 7F has been closing bases, and laying off. I hope neither airline/employee group comes out on top and the merger (if it happens) is held up as an example of how to do it right.

Usually a merger streamlines operations and there are inevitable redundancies. I can only hope that there is enough growth in the meantime to add as many jobs that are made redundant.

[FICU]

5T has busy skeds, moves a lot of freight, and has a very healthy charter operation that is further expanding with tour and increased professional sport charters in addition to the massive amount of industrial charters. Can't get airframe and crews fast enough. 7F is all skeds with vast infrastructure and the right turbo-prop(ATR). Put the two together and you have a pretty strong airline with a lot of tin including B767 and Hercs. We're all hoping it will be a successful merger in all facets if it happens. If and when it does happen the total fleet size will be larger than it is today.

[boxcut]

I love Skydrol. The fact that these two ( Canadian North and First Air) could not carry on the status quo was pretty obvious for anyone willing to open their eyes. The fact that Canadian North owns nothing and made numerous cash calls to Nunasi in the past tells the innocent bystander something. Cancel all the leases and wind her up. I suspect First Air will come out on top. Fact that there will be many people made redundant.

Canadian North is probably the healthier of the two companies. They sold one of their 737s to First Air who needed it after the YRB accident. 5T also holds a ton of charter contracts for the oilsands.

I think you've already been drinking Skydrol if you think First Air is coming out on top, or that it is the stronger of the two companies currently...

[airway]

Could somebody refresh us on the pros and cons of the Dash-8 (classic or Q400) VS the ATR for northern flying?

[Spandau]

Could somebody refresh us on the pros and cons of the Dash-8 (classic or Q400) VS the ATR for northern flying?

Is the Q400 certified for gravel?

[boxcut]

Could somebody refresh us on the pros and cons of the Dash-8 (classic or Q400) VS the ATR for northern flying?

The Dash has better short field performance (marginally) and the wide landing gear makes it more stable/less likely to gum up the gear with ice slush.

The ATR has bigger fuel tanks.

The ATR imho is the better aircraft in the north, where fuel is life. And the Q400 is gravel certified, to my knowledge hydro quebec uses them on gravel strips. Where the Q400 is less useful, is useable payload relative to runway length. If Canada's northern airports had 5500~6000 ft gravel strips, instead of 4000 or less ft, the Q400 would probably be a halfway decent candidate. But given the light loads between a lot of northern areas, there's no need for a 78 pax prop plane, when a 22 Seat ATR combi can do the job with half the fuel burn.

[palebird]

Actually I think the argument is hilarious. Canadian North has not crashed an aircraft but owns nothing (infrastructure). It all looks wonderful from the outside but requires huge amounts of cash to service. Their 737-300 leases are ridiculous but are justified in their eyes because of the oil sands work. There is no money in tour operators charter business and is only a race to the bottom. If they are chasing that then they are desperate for cash flow. Sports teams in Canada yeah it is nice but so what, it is just a bit of gravy and, once again, a little more cash flow.
First Air has infrastructure and the ATR's but a poor safety record which is probably why they do very few charters. There is no way these two are going to blend together smoothly. Wishful thinking. And in the end,if they do merge, you will have half the staff. But the status quo in the north is not sustainable. Period. Too many aircraft chasing too few dollars. Reality hits hard.

[FICU]

Actually I think the argument is hilarious. Canadian North has not crashed an aircraft but owns nothing (infrastructure). It all looks wonderful from the outside but requires huge amounts of cash to service. Their 737-300 leases are ridiculous but are justified in their eyes because of the oil sands work. There is no money in tour operators charter business and is only a race to the bottom. If they are chasing that then they are desperate for cash flow. Sports teams in Canada yeah it is nice but so what, it is just a bit of gravy and, once again, a little more cash flow.

Maybe speak up again when you actually know something about 5T.

[palebird]

Oh did I miss something?? I think not.

[young grasshopper]

FICU- don't take it to heart. The Ptarmigan's comments and predictions are aligned with most of his inaccurate forecasts regarding Canadian Aviation over the last 6 years he's been trolling on avcanada. lol

[boxcut]

Oh did I miss something?? I think not.

It's hard to hit anything when you are throwing stones at random...

[codfish]

Wrong post