Becoming an Expat

[FlyPorter]

I wanted to start a general thread regarding this. So here we go:

Joe is a recent graduate from Waterloo's (or Western's, or whoever's) university flight training program. He has about 250TT and whatever graduates come out from there with. He's chasing the big tin, and hes willing to work in the USA, Asia (includes India and Southeast Asia), UAE (and the rest of the developed Middle East), Europe and Australia.

How does one suggest he get his dream job. Please include any legal or other hoops he has to jump through.

[tbaylx]

I wanted to start a general thread regarding this. So here we go:

Joe is a recent graduate from Waterloo's (or Western's, or whoever's) university flight training program. He has about 250TT and whatever graduates come out from there with. He's chasing the big tin, and hes willing to work in the USA, Asia (includes India and Southeast Asia), UAE (and the rest of the developed Middle East), Europe and Australia.

How does one suggest he get his dream job. Please include any legal or other hoops he has to jump through.

Stay in Canada, work your way up to get on with an company that operates narrow body jets, get some command time and go to the middle east/china as a DEC. Alternatively go earlier as an F/O to the ME, but avoid asia on that route.

No shortage of low time guys overseas, so if you want to avoid getting screwed and having someone take all your money, get your experience here and market overseas once you have it.

[digits_]

Stay in Canada, work your way up to get on with an company that operates narrow body jets, get some command time and go to the middle east/china as a DEC. Alternatively go earlier as an F/O to the ME, but avoid asia on that route.

No shortage of low time guys overseas, so if you want to avoid getting screwed and having someone take all your money, get your experience here and market overseas once you have it.

^--- This. Canada is the best place in the world for the average 250 TT pilot.

[GRK]

What tbaylx said…with a few additions…if Joe was really keen, he could spend quite a bit of money and time on his EASA licences (frozen ATPL I think) but it would be a futile chase if he didn't have the right to work in the EU. Same goes with the USA…no green card? No job…although converting his TC licence to a US one is a little easier. Chasing tin at this stage of Joe's career? Small tin in Canada until he has at least a couple of thousand decent PIC hours in his log book if he wants to fly a big shiny jet overseas. He needs to have a look at websites for Emirates, Etihad, Qatar etc, as well as doing a little homework on the reams of "placement companies" out there. Etihad used to hire cadets with low time, but that may only be for locals now. Fly Dubai and Air Arabia have a PTF (pay to fly) program which is heavily over subscribed by EU pilots looking to build time for money. Indonesia used to be the same (PTF Ops) but I would avoid that like the plague. Cathay still hires second officers (anyone help? I'm not sure)…good place to look, although it has a reputation of being a ball breaker (work wise and living in HKK) for some. They do take lower time people for the junior positions. My advice (as an expat for over 10 years) is for Joe to build his time and experience flying in one of the best places to live while he learns his craft, then take that experience and head off shore. There are few FO jobs with any career path in Asia…try to avoid that. Last note, and most guys I know have found this to be true…once offshore it's a beeyatch to get home to work…seniority lists will have you back at the bottom of someone's list, and corporate flying is a who you know world. Start ups and management jobs will be few and far between so Joe might have to be prepared to visit on vacation only. Hope this helps.
GRK

[tbaylx]

What tbaylx said…with a few additions…if Joe was really keen, he could spend quite a bit of money and time on his EASA licences (frozen ATPL I think) but it would be a futile chase if he didn't have the right to work in the EU. Same goes with the USA…no green card? No job…although converting his TC licence to a US one is a little easier. Chasing tin at this stage of Joe's career? Small tin in Canada until he has at least a couple of thousand decent PIC hours in his log book if he wants to fly a big shiny jet overseas. He needs to have a look at websites for Emirates, Etihad, Qatar etc, as well as doing a little homework on the reams of "placement companies" out there. Etihad used to hire cadets with low time, but that may only be for locals now. Fly Dubai and Air Arabia have a PTF (pay to fly) program which is heavily over subscribed by EU pilots looking to build time for money. Indonesia used to be the same (PTF Ops) but I would avoid that like the plague. Cathay still hires second officers (anyone help? I'm not sure)…good place to look, although it has a reputation of being a ball breaker (work wise and living in HKK) for some. They do take lower time people for the junior positions. My advice (as an expat for over 10 years) is for Joe to build his time and experience flying in one of the best places to live while he learns his craft, then take that experience and head off shore. There are few FO jobs with any career path in Asia…try to avoid that. Last note, and most guys I know have found this to be true…once offshore it's a beeyatch to get home to work…seniority lists will have you back at the bottom of someone's list, and corporate flying is a who you know world. Start ups and management jobs will be few and far between so Joe might have to be prepared to visit on vacation only. Hope this helps.
GRK

+1000..people underestimate how hard it is to come home to the bottom of a seniority list. It's almost a one way move. If you get on with a decent carrier in Canada and have a seniority number, I wouldn't leave that for an overseas gig. If you get laid off etc then that's a different story.

[ikarus]

On the similar topic....

you have to realize that once you leave, if it's for a short period of time, your Canadian license is still valid but I'm not sure for how long before you have to redo exams and/or flight test.

How do you maintain your Canadian ATPL/CPL while overseas??? How about maintaining IFR currency? Just because you do 6 month ppc's overseas, it does not necessarily mean you will renew your Canadian IFR.

Which brings me to a question? What is the cheapest way of renewing it while overseas or if you happen to come home to Canada for a short holiday for example?

Thanks

[GRK]

Most guys I know overseas keep their Canadian medicals valid (easy to do in most western countries) by finding a TC licenced AME. That keeps your ATPL valid. As to keeping your IFR valid? Do you need it? In most cases the country you are employed in will issue a licence based on what you already have. (ICAO standard) with one or two requirements. Air Law is a common exam to have to write. A local licence validation (medical) will be required as well as a check ride on whatever aircraft type a guy gets assigned by his/her new company. In some cases, if the sim used and the aircraft conversion course has been deemed acceptable by TC, you can simply show them your training record, check ride report and foreign ATPL and TC will put the type rating on your Canadian licence. For short term overseas employment I can't give you an answer as I left over 10 years ago. Check with TC for that answer.

[complexintentions]

I used to keep my Canadian medical valid to maintain my ATPL but with the massive ripoff of the cost of a medical + TC fee, twice yearly (now once yearly) for something I had no need or use for, I said to hell with it. As GRK rightly points out, most jobs don't even need a valid foreign license beyond being hired and having your local license based on it. At my own employer, they do their medicals and all training in-house so beyond writing an Air Law exam when I first got here, the Canadian license is kind of pointless. It gets you the job and then you never need it again.

I wouldn't get too worried about keeping the license valid, if you get a decent job, after a few years of not paying tax and seeing how crazy things like housing costs in Canada are, you won't be sorely tempted to come back and start at the bottom of whatever AC and WestJet are calling their Low LOW Cost division at that point. But if you do get desperate and really need that 26k/year or whatever to fly a Dash 8, it'll cost you less to write exams and do a quick ride than to pay for medicals every year for multiple years.

Incidentally, GRK's summation of expat life is spot-on. If you want the overseas life, get your experience in Canada and then move on.

[FlyPorter]

Howbout QOL overseas?

If you work for an overseas carrier, could you tell us about:
-Pay
-Schdule/Pairings/Destinations
-Benifits
-Locations (pros and cons)
-Commuting (and the plausibility of living in Canada and commuting to your base in, say, Dubai or Shanghai)
-How you got the job
-Anything else pertinent

Thanks,

[Fr8 dawg]

I find it interesting that usually the anglo crowd (Brits, canadians, Aussies, etc) call themselves "Expats".
Expat this, expat that. It's all very gay.

"oh Lord, Toronto is so full of immigrants, so we left for Dubai where there is a great expat community..."

They refer to the brown guy driving a cab as an "immigrant" but as for themselves, they are "expats".

Truth is, you are all immigrants. And there is nothing wrong with that.

[tbaylx]

Actually a pretty big difference between an immigrant and an expat.

An expat isn't a citizen of the host country, nor is he trying to obtain permanent residence. His stay is temporary, hence the term expat.

An immigrant is trying to obtain citizenship and permanently move to the new country.

So yeah, 2 different terms for 2 very different things. Feel free to substitute whatever "non gay" term you'd like for expat, though immigrant isn't it.

[Jack Klumpus]

Expat, in its most used term, is someone who is sent overseas by their company.

Look flyporter, in my opinion enjoy the ride and not he destination. Sure you can plan to make it here and get on that journey, but once there, you will meet others who took completely different routes and also got here.

Example: I did the instructor, SPIFR up north, the tier 3, the tier 2 command and found myself here. I met pilots who joined as cadets, 8 years ago (same time as when I started instructing) and are now captains (and these cadets are foreigners). Now who's experience is better as a pilot? I don't know and don't care, both are capable of commanding that jet from A to B.

To reiterate what I said, get a flying job, any job, and work your way up. Personally I think Canadian experience is one of the best in the world.

Good luck.

[ikarus]

Thanks GRK & complexintentions.

I guess medical is not that important, as you'll have your foreign one done.
But unless you are going to work overseas for more then a year or two, I guess keeping your IFR valid is important since the foreign validation is only as good as your Canadian one. Say you are on a LOA from your Canadian company, and you'll come back in a year or two, just as an example....what's the easiest way to keep your IFR current while overseas, as TC does not take in consideration foreign skill tests or check rides, to renew your Canadian IFR.

I guess renting a certified sim or a small twin back in Canada will do the trick?

Sorry for drifting off the topic Porter guy...

[tbaylx]

Thanks GRK & complexintentions.

I guess medical is not that important, as you'll have your foreign one done.
But unless you are going to work overseas for more then a year or two, I guess keeping your IFR valid is important since the foreign validation is only as good as your Canadian one. Say you are on a LOA from your Canadian company, and you'll come back in a year or two, just as an example....what's the easiest way to keep your IFR current while overseas, as TC does not take in consideration foreign skill tests or check rides, to renew your Canadian IFR.

I guess renting a certified sim or a small twin back in Canada will do the trick?

Sorry for drifting off the topic Porter guy...

TC will accept a foreign PPC on a transport category aircraft as renewal of your Canadian IFR as long as you have he ride paperwork as proof.

[complexintentions]

I find it interesting that usually the anglo crowd (Brits, canadians, Aussies, etc) call themselves "Expats".
Expat this, expat that. It's all very gay.

"oh Lord, Toronto is so full of immigrants, so we left for Dubai where there is a great expat community..."

They refer to the brown guy driving a cab as an "immigrant" but as for themselves, they are "expats".

Truth is, you are all immigrants. And there is nothing wrong with that.

HAHAHAH! I love it when people display their total ignorance for the whole world on the internet!

To use your example. One cannot immigrate to the UAE. The only way to gain UAE citizenship is by birth, or marriage to a local. So there are no immigrants.

However, there is a large population of expatriates that come to work and get resident visas. Those visas expire every three years and must be renewed, or you are deported. When you cease employment, the visa is cancelled and you must leave. It never becomes citizenship. That is why the vast majority of the population of the UAE are "expats".

Hope that's clear now? And not too gay for you? lol

Seriously, people make fun of Americans for being ignorant of things outside of their borders but really, most Canadians are exactly the same.

[ikarus]

Thanks GRK & complexintentions.

I guess medical is not that important, as you'll have your foreign one done.
But unless you are going to work overseas for more then a year or two, I guess keeping your IFR valid is important since the foreign validation is only as good as your Canadian one. Say you are on a LOA from your Canadian company, and you'll come back in a year or two, just as an example....what's the easiest way to keep your IFR current while overseas, as TC does not take in consideration foreign skill tests or check rides, to renew your Canadian IFR.

I guess renting a certified sim or a small twin back in Canada will do the trick?

Sorry for drifting off the topic Porter guy...

TC will accept a foreign PPC on a transport category aircraft as renewal of your Canadian IFR as long as you have he ride paperwork as proof.

tbaylx,

is there somewhere you can quote me that, as I could not find it anywhere. The reply from TC office was "The CARs do not allow the renewal of a IFR rating based on a foreign flight test". Thanks

[tbaylx]

I'll have to look that up and see if i can find a reference. That was the information that i was given by the YOW office when i was overseas and renewed my IFR. No issues doing it in 2008, as long as things haven't changed since then it should be the same. Note that it had to be on a transport category aircraft, light aircraft didn't qualify.

[GRK]

Just to further muddy the waters…TC will put a type rating on your licence if the rating was done on one of their approved FTD's and with the course having been provided by a recognized company (such as EK etc). They will not award your IFR based on that I believe, that has do be done by an approved TC inspector following the TC requirements etc for an IFR renewal. I did an FAA type rating in SEA a few years back and we arranged to bring a TC inspector down from YVR to sit and observe so we could all renew our Canadian tickets…he was paid overtime, plus his travel and accommodation expenses. Not something I would have done just to renew my rating but the boss wanted it. So to sum it up…TC will award a type rating with the right paperwork, but not your IFR. Let us know what you find out…Cheers! GRK

[Eric Janson]

Howbout QOL overseas?

If you work for an overseas carrier, could you tell us about:
-Pay
-Schdule/Pairings/Destinations
-Benifits
-Locations (pros and cons)
-Commuting (and the plausibility of living in Canada and commuting to your base in, say, Dubai or Shanghai)
-How you got the job
-Anything else pertinent

Thanks,

@FlyPorter

Some excellent advice and information given so far in this thread.

Regarding your questions:-

It all depends on who you work for. There are huge differences between the various companies/locations.

You need to find something that works for you - that may be very different than what works for other people.

Do some research - a lot of what you are asking is available online. Company hiring minimums and terms and conditions are on the company websites. Nothing difficult about getting one of these jobs - meet the requirements and apply.

Suggest you go and visit some of these locations and see for yourself. Visiting and living there are two very different things. Suggest you start with the 2 places you've listed. The biggest mistake people make is not doing their research - make sure you understand what you are getting yourself into. As stated previously it's generally a one way street with no way back.

Commuting? Won't work in the long run if you have a long way to travel.

A lot of companies do not have a schedule that allows commuting.

The unhappiest Expats are the Commuters imho. The Expats that move with their families and live in the country full-time are the happiest. Best option is to take your leave in large blocks and go home 2-3 times/year.

Finally it is important to understand that it isn't easy being an Expat - all locations have some large Negatives that you will have to accept.

Not everyone has what it takes to live in a different culture.

[hst]

Commuting? Won't work in the long run if you have a long way to travel.

A lot of companies do not have a schedule that allows commuting.

The unhappiest Expats are the Commuters imho. The Expats that move with their families and live in the country full-time are the happiest. Best option is to take your leave in large blocks and go home 2-3 times/year.

There are exceptions. I commute 26 hrs round trip to and from work every month. However, I also get to operate from 1-3 trips home per month (2-3 day stays) that break up the long time away. It's a great commuting job that gets me home more often in a month than the past 20 years of Canadian airline flying. There are good commuting contracts out there. It is a balancing act though, on what you and your family can handle. Good luck and has been mentioned already, try google search and you will have hours/days of info to read through.

[trey kule]

I am in Canada every couple of years and renew my IF rating on the sim.. About $500. I did it because someone who, I believe had no idea what they were talking about, said my CDN ATPL would revert to a CPL if I let my IF rating lapse.
In any event, I found it a great learning experience. Had to remember how to file a flight plan, fly single pilot, and fly and talk on the radio at the same time. It does make you realize how much multi crew is easier.

As to medicals. I too, started out getting a Canadian renewal, but where I was it was a bit of a journey to get a Cdn certified examiner, and I eventually just stopped.

The validation of a foreign license is temporary everywhere I have flown. You eventually have to get a local license, unless you hold an acceptable license. The requirements very, as do the validation times.

Working as an expat can be very rewarding. But if you are talking about the airlines, it is not a beginners game for Canadians, except for a few airlines (that I know of..maybe many more)

The thing to remember is it is a job. Not a flying holiday. And you will be living, sometimes in a very different culture, which after you revel in the diversity, you have to come to terms with it. That can be a challenge for many. The flying culture can be different as well, and it becomes your responsibility to adjust to their culture.

For many that left Canada, they found the benefits far outweighed any negatives, and continue to live there. But as some have posted, get your experience in Canada first.

[Rippleeffect]

I'm thinking of taking a similar career path. 1800TT and 300MPIC on a Navajo. I've lived and worked overseas before, but not for an airline. Does anyone have any info on COPA Airlines? I have zero contacts that have worked overseas for an airline.

[leftoftrack]

I am in Canada every couple of years and renew my IF rating on the sim.. About $500. I did it because someone who, I believe had no idea what they were talking about, said my CDN ATPL would revert to a CPL if I let my IF rating lapse.
In any event, I found it a great learning experience. Had to remember how to file a flight plan, fly single pilot, and fly and talk on the radio at the same time. It does make you realize how much multi crew is easier.

As to medicals. I too, started out getting a Canadian renewal, but where I was it was a bit of a journey to get a Cdn certified examiner, and I eventually just stopped.
.

Your Canadian ATPL does revert to a CPL once your IFR expires. To hold an ATPL you must Have a valid MIFR much like you need the appropriate medical. To regain your ATPL all you need to do is Renew your MIFR. No need to do exams or anything else. It's why it's so amusing to see a job add for a Pilatus that requires an ATPL. You need one comming in but you most likely won't have one leaving

[trey kule]

My present understanding is that your ATPL does not revert to a CPL when your instrument rating expires, but you can only exercise the priveleges of the license as a CPL. Apparently, if you do a single engine IF renewal, they will actually issue a CPL, but I have no idea if that is true or not.

TC has never asked me to return my ATPL and issue me a CPL because my IF rating lapsed. I have simply renewed and all was well.

Have you been asked to surrender your ATPL because your IF rating lapsed?

[photofly]

Actually the CARs say the IR is needed by an applicant for an ATPL. They also say specifically that an ATPL is maintained merely by maintaining a Category 1 medical. The whole downgrading thing just looks entirely like TC overreach, in which case they make up whatever rules they want.

Has anyone appealed the downgrading of an ATPL to CPL to the TATC?