Rolling 172s

[Pop n Fresh]

When I read the title I still keep thinking for a moment this is going to be about pulling it around on the ramp. Tow bar?

[trey kule]

EDIT -- I amused to hear from the AvCan
experts that Bob Hoover, Matt Younkin and
Sean Tucker are "whack-a-doodle" compared
to the four-bars that can't fly their way out
of a wet paper bag.

I never said any of the folks above or insinuated they were wack a doodles. I refined my comments to those who would come on here (and their kids)to brag how they could do it, and of course post pictures...now I must get back to watching the video of your son...

[PilotDAR]

however I have never and will never do it because it would mean willfully disregarding the published limitations in the POH.

When I was a CFI, if I ever had positive proof any of my instructors or students ever rolled a flight school airplane they would be immediately fired. I would view the incident as an an example of a pilot demonstrating an attitude that is incomparable with the safe operation of aircraft.

This is a very good example of an answer I like to the OP question.

I was trained what was appropriately termed "grampa aerobatics" in an Aerobat, by a competent aerobatic pilot, and maintain my proficiency.

Will a 172 roll? I'm not discussing that for the correct reason of giving stupid kid pilots ideas. But, ask yourself, while you contemplate how you would not overstress a plane you were going to goof around in? Does it have a G meter?

During a maintenance check flight i was asked by TC to conduct on a club 172, I had to take an instructor (check out and all that....). What do I care, get in, sit down, strap in and come for the ride. After I was finished, I asked him if he would like to see me demonstrate anything for a "checkout" as I was there anyway, and he had four stripes. He asked me to roll it - I declined. I hope he's reading this, so he can remind himself what a dumb request this had been, lest I had actually attempted it.

When I do design approval test flying, there are sometimes quasi aerobatic maneuvers in the plan. The plane will have a G meter temporarily installed, so I KNOW what I'm doing to the plane. It will also be preflight inspected for condition, particularly control slop for dive recovery.

During flight testing, and particularly required power on spin entries, I have had to do a roll follow through as a recovery. The Lake Amphibian with the Lycoming IO-390 was the most dramatic, but in hindsight, it was a nice roll.

There are many things which can be done in aircraft, some of them are safe, and some of those are described in the Flight Manual. Do what the Flight Manual says you can do....

[Colonel Sanders]

TK: it sure grinds your gears that you
can't fly an airplane as well as a 17 year
old, doesn't it?

It's pretty impressive, how you can
watch an airplane fly itself, straight
and level from one airport to another.

[trey kule]

Edited for my tasteless remarks directed towards Canada's top aviator

[photofly]

I have to ask. WTF is

fruendscham

?
Do you mean schadenfreude? And how does that make any semantic sense at all?

[iflyforpie]

I have to ask. WTF is

fruendscham?

Do you mean Freudenschade?

Do you mean Shadenfreude?

[photofly]

I don't know what either of us means, at this point. You go first.

[trey kule]

My German is very rusty having not used it for decades..and it is early in the morning. .i will google it. It is a unique phrase meaning the shame of being related to someone.. It usually applies to the family of someone who has committed a heinous crime...where the family is shunned and despised simply through being related, and through no fault of their own..

As a matter of fact, I am deleting my whole last post as it was simply a rant out of frustration, and had nothing to do with the thread.

[PilotDAR]

I don't know what either of us means, at this point.

Awesome AvCanada line!

You go first.

Ooooo, I sure wouldn't! And I don't know what either of you mean either!

[Pop n Fresh]

Das ist Jeopardy.

[PilotDAR]

Das ist Jeopardy

Oh I get it!..... Rolling 172s, Das ist Jeopardy! Yup!

[Colonel Sanders]

What's the German word for, "Has Four Bars
But Can't Fly An Airplane?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueJeC2pxxbM


That's a German word that you could use a lot,
these days.


Back on topic. A few years back, took up a straight
and level hero in the Pitts. Gosh, he talked a good
game about what a hot pilot he was. So after levelling
off, I gave him the controls and told him to do a roll.

Holy sh1t. He half-rolled upside down, and then
pulled for a high-speed split-S. What a clusterf__k.
All the G and airspeed that you would ever want. He
greyed-out in his bizarre straight-and-level airline
pilot version of a gentle aileron roll. We lost thousands
of feet of altitude.

If we hadn't been in a strong, aerobatic airplane
he would have damaged it for sure, and possibly
killed himself.

Contempt for aerobatics will kill you, regardless of
how many gold bars you wear on your straight-and-
level shoulders.

And, I really don't understand how so many people
think their feelings are so much more important than
crashing and dying.

Try to park your feelings for a moment, and try to
learn something about aviation.

[Tips Up]

[quote="Colonel Sanders"]What's the German word for, "Has Four Bars
But Can't Fly An Airplane?"


Ruhestand

[white_knuckle_flyer]

And, I really don't understand how so many people
think their feelings are so much more important than
crashing and dying.

Try to park your feelings for a moment, and try to
learn something about aviation.

It is not reasonable to come on strong and ask people to park their feelings. Your advice is great most of the time, and a newb can learn a ton. But most of what you say is not saving anyone from the brink of death. Yeah, it's heavy stuff ~ planes can and will kill you. i think most people get it. But the message has to be conveyed in a way that is not confrontational. it has less to do with the listeners feelings than it does with the speakers insinuations.

A minister may be concerned about your eternal damnation, and in theory, that is more serious than bodily death. But would you allow various religious persons to speak to you in any way they deem fit in order to "save" you from the brink of whatever ? Probably not, nor should you.

I have told my daughter hundreds of things that have probably saved her life, but I don't think I ever made her feel shitty about it, and if I did, I shouldn't have.

It's not about feelings....it's about the other party insinuating that you are in need of saving.

[CFR]

And, I really don't understand how so many people
think their feelings are so much more important than
crashing and dying.

Try to park your feelings for a moment, and try to
learn something about aviation.

It is not reasonable to come on strong and ask people to park their feelings. Your advice is great most of the time, and a newb can learn a ton. But most of what you say is not saving anyone from the brink of death. Yeah, it's heavy stuff ~ planes can and will kill you. i think most people get it. But the message has to be conveyed in a way that is not confrontational. it has less to do with the listeners feelings than it does with the speakers insinuations.

A minister may be concerned about your eternal damnation, and in theory, that is more serious than bodily death. But would you allow various religious persons to speak to you in any way they deem fit in order to "save" you from the brink of whatever ? Probably not, nor should you.

I have told my daughter hundreds of things that have probably saved her life, but I don't think I ever made her feel shitty about it, and if I did, I shouldn't have.

It's not about feelings....it's about the other party insinuating that you are in need of saving.

+1

[single_swine_herder]

edited ......


When I was a CFI, if I ever had positive proof any of my instructors or students ever rolled a flight school airplane they would be immediately fired. I would view the incident as an an example of a pilot demonstrating an attitude that is incomparable with the safe operation of aircraft.

Several decades ago, I was hired to run a school that had been operating with zero supervision for quite some time and the place was an out of control horror show.

The former CFI / Ops Manager taught and encouraged instructors to do loops and rolls in the 150's and rental 172. Further, students were taking their relatives and girlfriends along on solo fights, and unauthorized cross-country trips.

The owner wasn't impressed when I grounded the fleet until they could be thoroughly inspected, and hired an entire new staff except the AME .... because he had been the only voice of reason in the outfit, and I was the first person to ever stand up for the Engineer and apprentice.

Oh, of course lots of people thought I was a jerk "for ruining their fun."

I was comfortable with the label.

[Colonel Sanders]

most of what you say is not saving anyone from the brink of death

Please, feel free to go teach yourself
aerobatics in a 172.

I've watched lots of you smart guys
die over the decades. Why should you
stop now?

the message has to be conveyed in a way that is not confrontational

Why would I care? Do you want your
money back? Do you really think I
could care less if you kill yourself?

Fill your boots. And keep nursing your
feelings which impair you from learning.

[PilotDAR]

Oh dear....

While trying to avoid being accused of "kissassery", I will remind my aviation colleagues, that this is our chosen pastime. Yes, we can be passionate about it, but if we discourage newcomers with apparent elitism, we loose.

We must encourage newcomers with a positive outlook, and encouraging perspective, while assuring that they are provided suitable cautions. Some of those cautions are certainly "do not do that, because others who did, had the ground suddenly rise up and hit them". Those cautions must be unmistakable in their seriousness. The saying is well applied to aerobatics; "if you have to ask: No".

I have personally pulled a couple of very dead friends out of their wrecks, in each case, they were doing something they should not have, and new better. I care that people live, and our industry IS safe, as well as being perceived to be. I do not like having to defend our safety to non aviators. Every time a small plane crashes, some eager non aviation person asks me why it happened. I would much rather describe the tens of thousands of hours of safe and spectacular flying which safely took place in between those crashes. Rolls in 172s will not be any of those safe hours I like to describe.

Yeah, I did a lot of stupid things in planes. Fortunately, responsible pilots kindly mentored me into wisdom in the air. I am now much too old and experienced to ever be able to use the excuse after my accident; "gee, I had not thought of that risk". So, why would I want any lesser or different experienced pilot to endure a risk, which I would actively avoid.

Curious newcomers have questions, as I remember having in my early days. The least I can offer is some wisdom to explain why this plane won't do that well, when I have experience with that. What readers do with it is up to them, but my intent is certainly safety, for everyone's sake.

And those pesky Flight Manual Supplements, which pilots seem to avoid reading? Well, I write some of them. I want pilots to understand some of the times I have found about the plane that they should not attempt. I don't always have the room to write the details of why they should not do it.

Use the plane the way is was designed, within it's limitations. If its limitations do not include what you need to do, then get a different plane which does. Airplanes, like people, are different to each other. They all fly straight and level well, but some bite worse than others, when you push them...

[Colonel Sanders]

At the risk of not appearing sufficiently egalitarian ...

Aviation isn't golf or tennis. I have never
heard of anyone dying on a golf course or
tennis court due to improper technique.

On my short taxiway at my airport, the
following people have died in their airplanes:

Joe Broeders
Bob Sterling
Andy Philips

It got so bad, people started calling my
taxiway "death row". Funny, huh? And
I'm sure the harrumphers are disappointed
that as the decades roll by, I still have a
perfect safety record.

Do you people treat 300 kph sportbikes
with contempt? I would hope not, because
they can kill you, if you don't handle them
right.

Similarly, don't treat aviation with contempt,
otherwise you may very well die. If you try
to teach yourself aerobatics, and fall out and
overstress the aircraft, you might think you
got away with it, but you may end up killing
someone else down the road that doesn't
know the airplane was quietly overstressed
and broken.

In fact, I'm pretty certain that's what killed
Bob Sterling and his wife.

Joe Broeders tore a wing off. And Andy Philips
blew his rudder off, 'way past Vne.

You may just think I am a silly old man that
doesn't stuff enough butter up your @ss to
make you feel good about yourself, but it
doesn't matter what I think - it's a fact that
aviation is terribly unforgiving of really
bonehead mistakes, like exceeding structural
limitations.

[PilotDAR]

and
overstress the aircraft, you might think you
got away with it, but you may end up killing
someone else down the road that doesn't
know the airplane was quietly overstressed
and broken.

This, is an unhappy reality. The club where I used to fly had a Citabria for aerobatics training. I did not fly it much, but a few times. It was correctly reputed to spin easily right, but not left. No one ever bother to investigate why, we just learned to work with it. The aircraft was later groundlooped, and during the repair, a number of broken welds were found in the fuselage, which had obviously been caused by exceeding limitations during flawed aerobatic training, but not been detected until other repairs were required. It could have become instantly very much more serious had someone carelessly mishandled it during legitimate training.

So, responsible pilots just don't do this kind of stuff.....

[CFR]

and
overstress the aircraft, you might think you
got away with it, but you may end up killing
someone else down the road that doesn't
know the airplane was quietly overstressed
and broken.

This, is an unhappy reality. The club where I used to fly had a Citabria for aerobatics training. I did not fly it much, but a few times. It was correctly reputed to spin easily right, but not left. No one ever bother to investigate why, we just learned to work with it. The aircraft was later groundlooped, and during the repair, a number of broken welds were found in the fuselage, which had obviously been caused by exceeding limitations during flawed aerobatic training, but not been detected until other repairs were required. It could have become instantly very much more serious had someone carelessly mishandled it during legitimate training.

So, responsible pilots just don't do this kind of stuff.....

This why some schools have a second sealed G meter that's read each flight

[iflyforpie]

They see me rollin'..... they hatin'

[Colonel Sanders]

loops and rolls in the 150's and rental 172

SSH: the proper thing to do would have
been to junk the aircraft - cutting up the
airframes so no parts could have been used
by homebuilders, bought as spares, etc.

I have my doubts that any AME could
actually completely inspect for damage.

[B208]

Why would I care? Do you want your
money back? Do you really think I
could care less if you kill yourself?

Well, Herr Obrest, you might do well to ask yourself why you are posting here. If your goal is simply to talk, and you aren't concerned about people actually listening to you, then carry on as you have been. If, however, you want to influence people you should pay attention to the feedback others on this forum have given you with regard to your presentation. That's my free advice, it's worth exactly whatever you deem it to be.

Now, rolling a 172. It can be done. It's not a really smart idea. Trying to teach yourself to do it is most likely a fatally bad idea. I know these things because I was young and stupid once. The Good Lord, for reasons known only onto Himself, never elected to cash me out of the game; thus allowing me to become old, and less stupid.