Will this be a tipping point?

[HiLo]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/aviatio ... -1.2620472

Will this be enough to prompt some government action (or at least a few questions in QP in Ottawa today)?

[ahramin]

A Transport Canada assessment had found no problems with First Air’s SMS just months before the crash, which killed 12 people.

Tipping point? Unlikely. It's not like the people at Transport Canada don't care about crashes, it's just that they aren't that good at preventing them. The problem isn't frequency or type of inspections, it's incompetence. You can audit a company's sms as often as you like, but unless you know what to look for, all you are going to find is a bunch of sms paperwork.

[HiLo]

So what's the solution?

[Bede]

Hasn't the accident rate gone down in Canada since SMS was implemented? I see no evidence of adverse effects of SMS, only union posturing.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/stats/aviation/2012/ss12.asp

[trey kule]

Just to play devil's advocate here, even if accident rates have decreased, how can one make the connection that it was due to SMS. Accident rates, in general have been decreasing before SMS became the flavour of the month.

And, what is to say the accident rate would have not decreased even more, if companies were not able to hide behind SMS... Some of the worst accidents in Canada in te last few years were from poster SMS compliant companies...ya gotta wonder.

[CanadianEh]

It comes down to human nature. In my opinion, SMS is like getting the fat kid to guard the cake. All you have to do is look at the recent rail safety issues to see what lack of oversight can lead to

[cncpc]

A Transport Canada assessment had found no problems with First Air’s SMS just months before the crash, which killed 12 people.

Tipping point? Unlikely. It's not like the people at Transport Canada don't care about crashes, it's just that they aren't that good at preventing them. The problem isn't frequency or type of inspections, it's incompetence. You can audit a company's sms as often as you like, but unless you know what to look for, all you are going to find is a bunch of sms paperwork.

Exactly.

[trey kule]

I find it odd that this particular crews action would be covered in SMS, unless it was a systematic training error in the company. SMS will never be able to prevent someone from losing situational awareness, and not responding appropriately to the other crew member. We are human.
And no amount of TC oversight will prevent it either


Is the purpose of SMS not the very first thing taught on the course? Or does Canada have a different SM system?

[esp803]

RE: SMS and safety improving

As others have said, correlation is not causation. It might be the sms, it might not be, there is no control group.

[ahramin]

It should be fairly obvious to anyone who has studied the numbers that the only big driver towards fewer accidents is better technology in the airplanes. It's no coincidence that the First Air crash was in that particular airframe.

TC mandated training, TC mandated SMS, TC mandated documentation, all these things have certainly made flying safer on the average, but not by much. Much training is the minimum required to satisfy TC and isn't nearly as effective as it could be, even when it isn't pencil whipped. The overwhelming majority of the SMS systems I have looked at have very little to do with flying or maintaining to a higher or safer standard and everything to do with meeting an audit checklist. I have even had one inspected tell me with a straight face that we would stand a much better chance of getting out SMS approved if we rearranged the items to match the order of the audit checklist. As for documentation well, ask any chief pilot how much effort and how long it takes to update a TC approved SOP and you'll see why most pilots aren't aware of half of what's in them.

Face it, flying is a little safer because of the efforts of Transport Canada. Imagine how much safer it would be if Transport Canada's efforts were well directed, competent, and effective.

[sstaurus]

It comes down to human nature. In my opinion, SMS is like getting the fat kid to guard the cake. All you have to do is look at the recent rail safety issues to see what lack of oversight can lead to

Echoes my thoughts as well.

[co-joe]

It should be fairly obvious to anyone who has studied the numbers that the only big driver towards fewer accidents is better technology in the airplanes. It's no coincidence that the First Air crash was in that particular airframe.

...

+1

[Liquid Charlie]

I guess it is easier to ban all jet aircraft from landing on gravel and on runways less than 8000 feet long and who cares about stick and rudder skills --

but what is truly the lynch pin -- what one thing could be changed in Canada to improve aviation safety -- who or what is at the bottom of the inverted pyramid --

[Panama Jack]

The issue that I have with this article is that it shows pictures of an Air Canada pilot on an Airbus and cites the First Air accident as justification for increased oversight in lieu of SMS.

SMS does work, especially in well-organized organizations. As far as Captains ignoring the inputs of their First Officers, this occurs even in draconian regulatory systems with plenty of regulatory oversight. Despite not being acceptable behavior, I find that to be a poor example to justify an argument.

The real problem in Canada, is not the 705 operations but rather the 703 and some 704 operations which should have more regulatory oversight. Historically, they (and their predecessors in the pre-CAR days) have had the most issues with regulatory non-compliance and accidents. The challenge they face with lack of infrastructure, regulations which don't always reflect these realities, commercial pressures, and inspectors who have come from the same background who have sometimes looked the other way has not faired well for the accident record. Supervision, supervision, supervision is the key.

[Widgeon Guy]

I would say the unproven system that has been chocked down our throats has failed, Why they didn't adopt the DOD system that has been proven, and yes has room for improvement is beyond me. But that is what it is all about improving (fixing) systems making it better. Instead we have people being hired to document all kinds of garbage, do root cause analysis and trend crap, and make CAPs that over burden the people that are doing the work that keep the aircraft in the air to make the service. The people that are fixing and flying are trained to do they jobs and just needed help to do it better, instead they are getting road blocks with paper work to the point they don't dare make a report to burden there jobs as it is.Then we have two clowns come up from Florida that claim to have trained our T.C. people everything they know about SMS when the USA does not have that great of a safety record. They are very smart clowns though they are rich with our money teaching us how to make processes that would work for people flipping burgers.
Still working in the trenches that are slowly turning into tunnels.