The Aviation! It hurts!

Colonel Sanders · Post by **Colonel Sanders** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:52 pm

obscenely long and complicated method to start his airplane. Litterally, it was five full pages long. Some of the items required a magician's level of manual dexterity or at least two extra hands. Some of the things in his opinion required two crew to do. Bizarre. But when I voiced that there has to be an easier way to do this, he would have none of it. This info had been aquired from an "expert". We didn't get along after I called into question his "expert's" qualifications

Reminds me. Last summer I was walking past
the gas pumps and had a short conversation with
a Bonanza pilot who was filling his airplane up.

He informed me that to be an approved American
Bonanza Society (ABS) Flight Instructor, you had
to have logged FIVE THOUSAND hours just in the
right seat of a Bonanza as a flight instructor.

I pondered that for a moment, and replied that
my father had been an instructor on the CF-104D
transitioning pilots at the OTU at Cold Lake from
Sabres on to the -104, and that he probably only
had about 2500TT back in the early 60's when he
was doing that (actually a fair amount for a young
jet fighter pilot), and was the Beech Bonanza really
that much more of a handful than an F-104?

I have to wonder if ABS stands for "All Bull Sh1t".

rt777 · Post by **rt777** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:24 am

I seriously think 50% of people flying do not realize that a good radio call is basically saying what you need to say in proper phraseology so its brief, and doesn't take up anyone else's time. Unfortunately, everyone loves just throwing in silly phrases and extra stuff which is unnecessary.

slam525i · Post by **slam525i** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:17 am

About the flight planning, I filed my first flight plan in over a decade online, just like iflyforpie.

My 2nd flight plan filed was for the return trip. I ended up diverting due to partial power loss (carb ice) at night at low altitude, but I had a warm fuzzy feeling when I called FIC to inform them, knowing that someone would have looked for us if it was something worse and we ended up in the trees.

The online flight planning is so easy, especially with the templates.

Colonel Sanders · Post by **Colonel Sanders** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:05 am

On the subject of filing flight plans ...
not sure anyone cares, but

Many years ago I was at an FBO in the
USA and they had some business cards
on the counter. On the back of the cards
was a miniature version of an FAA flight
plan.

And, the light bulb went on. I carry around
two small folded-up pieces of paper in my
wallet which are photocopy-reduced NavCan
and FAA flight plans. So anywhere in the
USA or Canada, if I want to file a flight plan,
I unfold the little pieces of paper, phone up
FSS and rattle off the flight plan in the
sequence they want.

Some bright boy should make up a single
tiny piece of paper with the two flight plan
forms, one on each side.

Somewhere around the office, I still have
a pad of those green DOT flight plan forms.
Next time I'm in Vegas, I'm going to try
to sell it to the bald fat guy on Pawnstars
for $10,000, claiming that Pierre Trudeau
personally gave it to me.

Pop n Fresh · Post by **Pop n Fresh** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:45 am

Chatter box Cessna... Are you red with black and white plus signs and three wings?

gustind · Post by **gustind** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:01 pm

JungianJugular wrote:I recall my student PPL pilot days.

YKF TWR: What are your intentions?
Me: To takeoff (turn to FI, "What a dumbass.")

Was this with me or with RM?

CpnCrunch · Post by **CpnCrunch** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:34 pm

slam525i wrote:About the flight planning, I filed my first flight plan in over a decade online, just like iflyforpie.

My 2nd flight plan filed was for the return trip. I ended up diverting due to partial power loss (carb ice) at night at low altitude, but I had a warm fuzzy feeling when I called FIC to inform them, knowing that someone would have looked for us if it was something worse and we ended up in the trees.

The online flight planning is so easy, especially with the templates.

Just curious - why did you have to divert for carb icing, and what do you mean by 'low altitude'?

slam525i · Post by **slam525i** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:51 pm

I suppose it's not really "low altitude". Low-ish altitude. We had carb ice and it didn't go away with carb heat. We continued to lose power, and with only 1000 AGL, I asked for vectors to nearest.

We had enough power to maintain altitude at much reduced speed and the engine cleared up near the field. It took 4 minutes to restore power with carb-heat according to my GPS logs (You can see when the plane starts accelerating again).

CpnCrunch · Post by **CpnCrunch** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:05 pm

slam525i wrote:I suppose it's not really "low altitude". Low-ish altitude. We had carb ice and it didn't go away with carb heat. We continued to lose power, and with only 1000 AGL, I asked for vectors to nearest.

We had enough power to maintain altitude at much reduced speed and the engine cleared up near the field. It took 4 minutes to restore power with carb-heat according to my GPS logs (You can see when the plane starts accelerating again).

Ok, thanks, that makes sense. 4 minutes does seem a long time for it to clear. Do you remember what the temperature and dewpoint were? (It's possible to check the historical METARs on ogimet.com if you know the date, time and location). Did you use carb heat during the cruise?

I'm not trying to make out that you don't know how carb heat works. I flew for 15 years and didn't have a single carb icing experience until this year when I started flying in BC, when it's happened twice (both times at full power in the climbout at around 1000ft). I suspect it's either the BC climate, or the fact that the cessna 150 is prone to carb icing, or a combination of both. Either way, it's a learning experience. Now I make sure I heat up the carb just before takeoff if there is any possibility of icing, and that seems to help.

iflyforpie · Post by **iflyforpie** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:21 pm

The 150 is prone to carb ice... as is pretty much every Continental with a carb because they aren't mounted directly on the oil pan like Lycomings.

Flown in BC my whole life.... can count on one hand how many times I've had bad carb ice. Mostly coastal weather that makes it bad... here even with low temp/dewpoint spread and the prop making vortex rings (didn't know a 172 could do that!

), she just purrs like a kitten.

Shiny Side Up · Post by **Shiny Side Up** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:32 pm

Colonel Sanders wrote: Some bright boy should make up a single
tiny piece of paper with the two flight plan
forms, one on each side.

The Canadian one is already done for you. Take a look on the back of a CFS. Doesn't matter how old, even since they were green it has the same thing. IF one wants to save space, tear off the back cover and keep it with you when you need to file. It has the order of stuff that they're going to ask, and largely spells out the specifics. Actually that only takes up slightly less than half of the back cover, so if you wanted to cut it down to fit to a piece of paper that would fit in your wallet if it was folded in half - Presto!

It even nicely reminds you that the same thing is repeated on page C3 inside. I go through this every ground school with PPLs. there are 27 items in that list, though lots of them are irrelevant for PPL VFR pilots. Let's review! Learning is good!

FLIGHT PLAN / FLIGHT ITINERARY

1. Aircraft Identification (aircraft registration mark, flight number or radio call sign)
2. Flight rules.
3. Type of flight
4. Number of Aircraft (if more than one)
5. Type of Aircraft
6. Wake turbulence category
7. Equipment (see page C3)
8. Departure Aerodrome.
9. Time of departure (UTC) proposed/ actual
10. Cruising speed
11. Altitude / Level
12. Route.
13. Destination.
14. Estimated Elapsed Time (hours and minutes)
15. SAR time*
16. Alternate Aerodrome (if required)
17. Other Information
18. Endurance (hours and minutes)
19. Total number of persons on board
20. Type of ELT*
21. Survival Equipment (type, jackets, dinghies)
22. Aircraft Color and markings
23. Remarks (regarding other survival equipment)
24. Arrival report - Where it will be filed*
25. Name and Number or adress of person or company to be notified if SAR action initiated*
26. Pilot's Name
27. Pilot's license number (Canadian pilot licenses only)

* Not required on ICAO flight plan/flight itinerary

Most of that stuff above ain't hard to know. Some like 3 and 6 are only the worry of the people who do them. For most general aviation flyers the flight services guy won't ask. 4 is for the Colonel and such, I wonder how many people like to fly formation simply so they can piggyback thier flight plan filing duties on someone else.

The only one that throws people the loop is 7, which it helpfully tells you where to find. For most GA pilots its going to be do you have a VHF radio and do you have a mode C transponder. Most of you will be VG/C. As most pilots fly the same plane all the time it shouldn't be too much to ask that they have a handle on this bit of info, a string of potentially 4 letters. I know, we're asking a lot.

Also, ain't this info on the magic foreflight that everyone raves about? Doesn't that even make the task easier? Its bizarre that everyone seems to have an iPad with all this stuff to help them fly, but this little task still stumps and terrifies them.

CpnCrunch · Post by **CpnCrunch** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:36 pm

iflyforpie wrote:The 150 is prone to carb ice... as is pretty much every Continental with a carb because they aren't mounted directly on the oil pan like Lycomings.

Flown in BC my whole life.... can count on one hand how many times I've had bad carb ice. Mostly coastal weather that makes it bad... here even with low temp/dewpoint spread and the prop making vortex rings (didn't know a 172 could do that! ), she just purrs like a kitten.

I never experienced any carb ice in the O-300 172, although that was in Alberta. Strangely the person I bought it from pointed out carb icing to me on the test flight, and he said he experienced it all the time. I'm pretty sure it wasn't carb ice - I later noticed that the engine just had a little more vibration when running around (I think) 2100rpm.

According to this thread, the carb in the o-300 is mounted similar to the lycomings, and it is just the smaller continentals that have the major issues with carb icing:

http://cessna170.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6126

slam525i · Post by **slam525i** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:11 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:Ok, thanks, that makes sense. 4 minutes does seem a long time for it to clear. Do you remember what the temperature and dewpoint were? (It's possible to check the historical METARs on ogimet.com if you know the date, time and location). Did you use carb heat during the cruise?

Temp +3. Dewpoint -7. No visible moisture anywhere. I didn't use carb heat during cruise. I never had because I had been taught carb-ice is more likely at low power settings. (I was at 75%.) It's a Piper, so it's less likely to ice. It's a Lycoming so it's less likely to ice. It still iced. It was worse for me because it built up during a cruise-descent (at 75% power), so I didn't even notice a reduction in speed or power until I levelled off at 1000 AGL and the engine got rough. (The descent was due to traffic in and out of YYZ. I was on flight following.)

The 4 minutes it took was likely due to the carb ice build up being significant and the lack of exhaust heat from the engine that wasn't making much power. There is something to be said for the irony of needing heat from the engine, to melt ice, to get power from the engine, which makes the heat to begin with.

I had never encountered carb-ice before. The first time it happens to me, it happens at 1000 AGL and in the dark, and coming back from a TC safety seminar no less.

CpnCrunch · Post by **CpnCrunch** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:38 pm

slam525i wrote: Temp +3. Dewpoint -7. No visible moisture anywhere. I didn't use carb heat during cruise. I never had because I had been taught carb-ice is more likely at low power settings. (I was at 75%.) It's a Piper, so it's less likely to ice. It's a Lycoming so it's less likely to ice. It still iced. It was worse for me because it built up during a cruise-descent (at 75% power), so I didn't even notice a reduction in speed or power until I levelled off at 1000 AGL and the engine got rough. (The descent was due to traffic in and out of YYZ. I was on flight following.)

The 4 minutes it took was likely due to the carb ice build up being significant and the lack of exhaust heat from the engine that wasn't making much power. There is something to be said for the irony of needing heat from the engine, to melt ice, to get power from the engine, which makes the heat to begin with.

I had never encountered carb-ice before. The first time it happens to me, it happens at 1000 AGL and in the dark, and coming back from a TC safety seminar no less.

That's very unusual in a Piper. As you can see, you were in the 'light icing - cruise or descent power' carb icing range:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/Publications/en/TP2 ... 28E_38.pdf

Are you sure the mixture wasn't too lean? You'll get identical engine roughness and rpm drop, and it will also be cured with carb heat (unless it's way too lean).

Broken Slinky · Post by **Broken Slinky** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:58 pm

Our club has the planes "documented" with FIC. Whenever we call in to file a flight plan they ask for the registration of the aircraft. Once it pops up on their screen the majority of the information is already there. We just have to tell them what type of flight and our route duration, pilot name, etc... I'm not sure of the procedure to register each aircraft with FIC but it sure beats trying to figure out what letters go into each box and how many life rafts I'm carrying. They also keep information like alternate contacts so they know who to yell at when you go to the washroom without your cellphone and forget to close your flight plan. Trust me they call. A knock on the bathroom door was followed by the question "Hey Broken, did you forget to do something?"
So far I can say 99% of my calls into FIC have been pleasant and majority seem to want someone to talk to.

Posthumane wrote:Heh, reminds me of one of my earlier flight plan filing experiences. I had gotten used to the fact that the guys/gals on the other end of the phone line are friendly and guide you along the process by asking questions (i.e. "Departure time? Destination? Type of aircraft?") so I had gotten lazy about remembering the order that things generally come in. One day I went to file in preparation for a XC just after I got my PPL:

Me: Hi! I'd like to file a flight plan please.
FSS (sounding a bit grumpy, possibly having a bad day): Okay... Go ahead...
<long pause>
Me (suddenly in a panic as I don't know what to say): Ummm, okay heading from Medi--
FSS: Wait! what's the type!?
Me: Type? oh.. uh, cessna 172.
FSS: No, the type of flight! Are you filing IFR?
Me (getting flustered): Uh, no. VFR please.
FSS: Check your CFS for a flight plan format next time. Aircraft type?
Me: C172...
FSS: Equipment codes?
Me: Ummm, standard.
FSS: So, you have VHF, ADF, VOR, ILS and DME in your 172!?
Me: Er, no, I mean.. I have VHF and GPS. Oh and mode C.
FSS: That's VG/C. ELT?
Me: Yes...
FSS: No, the type!
Me: Oh, ummm.... Automatic... fixed..?

Anyway, it went on like this for a bit. After that I tried to be a little bit better prepared when I called. There is a handy flight plan reference on my kneeboard even, which I had completely forgotten about at the time.

Colonel Sanders · Post by **Colonel Sanders** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:02 pm

it is just the smaller continentals that have the major issues with carb icing

O-470 makes ice.

Shiny Side Up · Post by **Shiny Side Up** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:10 pm

So will the R-670. I know a guy who ended up in a field with his Cessna 190 that way.

slam525i · Post by **slam525i** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:10 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:Are you sure the mixture wasn't too lean? You'll get identical engine roughness and rpm drop, and it will also be cured with carb heat (unless it's way too lean).

Yup. Very sure.

1. it has an engine monitor. Makes proper leaning a lot easier.

2. The first reaction was throttle, mixture, fuel pump, fuel selector, carb heat. That didn't fix anything. Then after checking the engine gauges for an obvious problem, I slowly backed off the mixture about half way, trying to look for a smooth spot, before giving up on that and putting it back to full-rich. (At that point I was out of ideas and asked for vectors.)

white_knuckle_flyer · Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:08 pm

I used to be a little trepidacious about the flight plan phone call, but after saying basically the same thing time and time again, it's not an issue.

However, a couple of other pre-flight planning things still give me the butterflies, or just stress me out a little becuause they are things that I have to do before I can get flying.

1) Checking the NOTAMs. It feels like I am looking up every NOTAM in the entore province ! My instructor could barrel through them and just pick out the important ones but I do it so infrequently that I am not super savvy with the airport codes and definitely need longer to sort through the bafflegab of NOTAM shorthand.

2) Weight and balance for departure/destination and return flight. Even though I pretty much take the same people with me all the time, it's just another thing I have to do and it adds stress to my newbie brain

3) Interpreting the map along the route I am planning ~ getting MOCA and stuff. Making sure I don't fly into something. A joke for people who fly a plane with the same amount of comfort and ease with which I drive to the store, but still a medium-sized deal for me.

davecessna · Post by **davecessna** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:41 pm

It's very, very important to take a #selfie every time you flare the aircraft. Bonus points if you crab onto the nosewheel whilst doing so.

The Aviation! It hurts!

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