Annual inspection taking a really long time - options?

[Posthumane]

I've kind of gotten myself into a bit of a frustrating situation, which is probably my own fault, and now I'm looking on the best way to go about fixing it.

I have an older model 172 which is parked outside. In order to learn a little bit more about the airplane I asked a local AME if he would be willing to work with me to do the annual inspections. This worked out okay the summer before last as I did a good chunk of the work while the AME was working on another aircraft and he would come and inspect my work and tell me what needed to be done. Overall the whole process took a few weeks as we had to wait for parts to be sent out to be recertified, etc. This was in the summer time so I was able to work on the aircraft outside most of the time without issue. Tried to do the same thing a second time at the end of last summer when the annual expired, but the AME was unavailable due to other work and I was going to be out of the country for a bit.

Fall came around and the AME gave me a timeline when he would be available, so I booked a spot in a hangar as it was getting cold out now. First couple of days the AME was not able to make it due to family illness so I just did as much as I could. When he was able to make it in we got about half way through the inspection and determined that some parts were needed to continue. He agreed to order the parts and let me know the cost, as he had some other things he needed to get and could combine shipping. A few months later when I managed to get a hold of him again he told me he hadn't ordered the parts yet and the I should go ahead and do so myself, so I did. Another couple of months went by with him being away working on other planes, during which I got the parts and started to install the ones that I could do myself.

While the AME is good about answering technical questions by email or text, I can never get an answer as to when he'll be available to continue work on my plane. This is getting frustrating as it's been six months since the work first started and paying insurance and parking on an airplane I can't use is getting to me. Plus I wasn't expecting it to take this long, so I didn't do anything to pickle the engine.

So, if you were in this situation, what would you do - continue on with the hopes that it can get done before flying season gives way to winter again, or just say enough, pay for what's been done, and start over at another shop? Any other options?

[SeptRepair]

Cut your losses and move on.

[GyvAir]

Cut your losses and move on.

+1

Your AME seems to have already left the relationship. So should you.

[iflyforpie]

Brick and mortar AMOs don't usually come with those kinds of problems. I can get a 172 in and out in a day..... and most parts are already in stock for our 172 (battery, regulator, belt, alternator, cylinder, strut kits, seat rails, brakes, tires, bearings, bushings, etc etc etc). Things like ELTs go out first to reduce down time.

Sorry to say, but you get what you pay for....

[Colonel Sanders]

I know of an AMO at a nearby airport
that routinely takes six months to do
an annual on a fixed-gear, fixed prop
single. The owners are not terribly
happy about the downtime, which
curiously is not considered to have
any value.

[revr]

Go owner maintenance than you can finish the inspection yourself!

Take it to an amo and get it done in a reasonable time frame.

Find a reputable AME to do it, don't just look for the guy who is gonna let you help to keep the cost down.

When it come to this if the owner wants to help they should be doing no more than cleaning panels, washing the aircraft, etc.

Cheap is not better.

Now you have to find a AME who is willing to pick up the pieces where you and your last AME left off.

Crappy situation your in, it sucks, but take your truck to the chevy dealer for work and ask to help fix it and see what happens.
Lots of AME's let owners help and I do as well but sometimes the owner becomes annoying and you just want to say " screw it than and do it yourself". Maybe this is what happend?
Best bet is go to an AMO.
Ask around to other private aircraft owners in the area and find a GOOD AME.

[Posthumane]

Thanks for the replies.

There is one AMO in my area and they are pretty busy with their own aircraft (flight school and helicopter ops) so it's quite difficult to get a spot on their schedule. As far as other independent AME's, they would have to be coming from elsewhere or I would have to fly the plane to them, which would have been fine if I had done that before the annual expired, but I was dumb and didn't do so.

What I had intended for was basically for me to do the menial labour (cleaning stuff, greasing) that the AME may not want to do so he could focus on the more important tasks, but perhaps I didn't communicate my intentions well enough as it seems he would rather have me do pretty much everything that doesn't require specialized tools. The advantage of that is I've been learning a lot about the aircraft as well as the associated paper world, but a few times I felt I had to step back and say "hold on, I don't know enough about this."

I don't know if it's strictly a matter of him not wanting to work with me as when I was down for surgery a month ago I said to him "I can't do any work for some time. Can you finish up the work on the plane yourself?" and got no response, so again nothing moved on that. Then when I was better and was able to start doing things myself, I started asking specific questions (i.e. "What type of antiseize goes on this part? The CAR's reference says this, how do you interpret that?") and started getting detailed replies. Although, I fully admit that I can be VERY annoying at times...

[Colonel Sanders]

With all due respect to the paperpushers,
all you need is an AME for your private
aircraft annual.

You just need one good one. Specifically,
you need to find a competent and ethical
AME. They are as rare as hen's teeth - see
all my deleted threads here - and are thus
worth their weight in gold. When you find
one, treat him well.

I don't know your story, but remember that
some owners are more difficult to deal with
than others. Don't be a difficult owner, when
you are dealing with a competent and ethical
AME.

Now, when you are dealing with an AME that
is incompetent or unethical (95% of AME's out
there), you may have to be little harsh to get
yourself out of the hole that you are in, and
to distance yourself from that situation.

It doesn't matter what I think. Go read some
of what Mike Busch says. He makes a very nice
living helping owners deal with incompetent
and unethical A&P's. He is both ethical and
competent and as such is a very rare breed.

[torquey401]

Now, when you are dealing with an AME that
is incompetent or unethical (95% of AME's out
there)

[azimuthaviation]

Now, when you are dealing with an AME that
is incompetent or unethical (95% of AME's out
there)

Not far off the mark, but to be completely fair that ratio stands true for the general population as well.

What I had intended for was basically for me to do the menial labour (cleaning stuff, greasing) that the AME may not want to do so he could focus on the more important tasks

Dont volunteer to do people favours. Chances are, if they need your help, they will ask.

[Colonel Sanders]

that ratio stands true for the general population as well

Of course. None other than Mike Holmes
has stated that 90% of building contractors
are either incompetent or outright thieves.

I am not allowed to state examples of incompetent
or unethical AME's on this forum - otherwise
certain people here cry to mommy and the
thread is deleted - but I will mention ...

A few years back, had a bad problem with
avionics noise on a C421. At considerable
expense, it was flown to a Big Name Shop
that recommended that both mags be
changed on an engine.

Hold on a second, I said. I'm not as bright
as an AME but I know for sure that the mags
were NOT the problem.

Turned out to be a noisy tach generator. Mags
were fine.

So much for the Big Name Shop. They might
have been ethical, but they certainly were not
competent.

I have many many many many examples of
AME's I have encountered who are not either
ethical or competent. I am not allowed to
mention these examples because of the
crybabies here who don't like the truth
getting out about their activities.

If tradespeople were as swimmingly perfect
as portrayed here, neither Mike Busch nor
Mike Holmes could make a such a profitable
living, cleaning up after them.

[azimuthaviation]

If tradespeople were as swimmingly perfect
as portrayed here,

By whom?

[Posthumane]

Dont volunteer to do people favours. Chances are, if they need your help, they will ask.

Not from my experience. When there is a task which is labour intensive but doesn't require any specialized skills, it makes sense that an untrained monkey like myself does them while the AME focuses on more important tasks. Otherwise either the AME spends many hours scraping grease off a part at $85/hr, or it simply doesn't get done.

Anyway, I've been going through some of Mike Busch's articles and I think that a big part of what's causeing this delay is a lack of a proper division of tasks. I asked the AME to work with me to do the annual and he agreed, but I think I was expecting him to manage and me just to work under his guidance like an apprentice would, whereas he may have expected me to manage and him to just help out when necessary. Mike Busch points out that the latter is the way he prefers owners to do it, but he also points out that most owners are really bad at managing the maintenance side of things, and I'm no exception. Although I'm fairly experience with working on cars and motorcycles, there are a number of things specific to aviation which I've never been taugh (like which parts have to be original, which can be PMA'd, which can just be TSO'd, etc.)

[photofly]

You've never done a job as part of maintenance then, and found your own time has been billed back to you at $85/hr?

I have.

[Posthumane]

As a matter of fact I have, by the brick and mortar AMO that is local to me. The mechanic told me that the drain plug on the fuel selector was seized and he would have to take the unit out and unstick it. I offered to help and he gave me a spot where I could work the plug back and forth while applying a penetrating oil. Sure enough, part of the $9500 bill I got from them included 5 hours for freeing up the fuel drain plug.

[iflyforpie]

Well there's the problem, $85/hr is too low and they are trying to pad billing to make up for it.

[Colonel Sanders]

Reminds me. Asked for quote on G530 install
quite some time ago.

Came back with quote of 120 hours, and they
could do it in one week.

I replied - you only have one avionics tech.
How is he going to work 120 hours in 5 days?

AMO owner replied that his advertised rate
was low to get people through the door, so
he needed to triple-bill his hours.

Nice.

[azimuthaviation]

Reminds me. Asked for quote on G530 install
quite some time ago.

Came back with quote of 120 hours, and they
could do it in one week.

I replied - you only have one avionics tech.
How is he going to work 120 hours in 5 days?

AMO owner replied that his advertised rate
was low to get people through the door, so
he needed to triple-bill his hours.



Nice.

Well. That does sound a bit outrageous. But on the plus side, it is 50% fewer hours than the last time you told this story.

I remember a few years back, a friend of mine wanted
a G530 installed. Obsolete now, of course, but back
then it was cool. Shop quoted 240 hours (or something
insane like that) for install. Elapsed time one week, with
only one person working on it. Even if the poor guy bills
20 hours a day - 4 hrs of sleep, and he doesn't get to
eat, shower of sh1t for a week - that's still only 7x20
or 140 hours. Where is the other 100 hours?

Didn't use that shop. My understanding was that
the 240 hrs was flat rate. I'm not an avionics guy,
I don't know if six weeks of labour is a good price
for a GPS install.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 27&t=88127

[Meecka]

Wow! It is amazing, and fairly disheartening to see how many of you folks have a fairly signifigant hate- on for AME's. To sit here in the "maintenance" board, and read thread after thread that degenerates into "AME's charge too much" or "most AME's are incompetent crooks" just boggles. When you bought the aircraft, did you not think the damed thing had to be maintained? Or when it came to maintaining it, did you do ANY research? Or did you just look for the guy willing to do it for the cheapest rate possible, and then try to lowball the crap out of him?

Time and again I've seen the outright distaste owners/ pilots have for maintainers. As if we were a lower form of life. Guess what boys, we are no different than you! Trying to pay our bills, trying to put food on our tables, if we have children, trying to figure out how in the hell we are going to provide for them. And yes, like everyone else out there trying to find a way to not have to work until we have one foot firmly planted in the grave, same as you we are allowed that, no?

[photofly]

Er... nobody likes to be seen as a meal-ticket.

[whereeaglessoar]

There is a certain competant and honest AME in Vernon who will take care of your airplane and will do it at half the regular AMO rate, just this time , as a favour between friends. He will be in touch with you.

[Colonel Sanders]

"most AME's are incompetent crooks"

No, most AME's are either incompetent OR crooks.

I could mention a specific pointed maintenance
example but I suspect you would accuse me of
not being sufficiently polite and deferential, so
we'll let that one slide.

Time and again I've seen the outright distaste owners/ pilots have for maintainers

Why do you suppose that is? Random chance?
Or was it earned over a very long time after many
unsavory experiences? Again, it doesn't matter
what I think, but if AME's are so fantastic why
does Mike Busch earn such a great living, managing
maintenance for private owners? According to
you, Mike Busch's (remote!) diagnostic and
supervisory skills should not be required. Hm.

Frankly I think certified aircraft have a very dim
future as far as private ownership goes, if for no
other reason than parts costs. As time goes by,
more and more private aircraft will be homebuilt.

[Colonel Sanders]

I would like to point out (again) that most
people are really bad at diagnosis.

And I'm not just talking AME's. Doctors.
Car mechanics. Electrical problems.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard
"My motorcycle won't start" and people
shotgun it with Seafoam, battery connections.
All over the map.

No methodical diagnosis. Some pattern
recognition is all: "I've seen that problem
before - try this" is considered the highest
form of problem solving, for many. Sigh.

An incorrect diagnosis, while perhaps not
unethical, can nonetheless turn out to be
a very expensive waste of time. When an
owner finds out about that, he might not
be too happy.

Again, I know you AME's hate Mike Busch,
but he is very very good at diagnosis. He's
a really smart guy - check his bio.

[Pop n Fresh]

Meecka the reason is no one remembers the many shops that do their job well. Everything is expensive and when it's a airplane things are slightly more.

Pilots love to talk about the time they paid a lot and then found a second shop to actually fix the problem. No one remembers the second shop because we are all appalled about the first one.

Jimmy Mcmillan explains the root of the over priced part.

[iflyforpie]

There is a certain competant and honest AME in Vernon who will take care of your airplane and will do it at half the regular AMO rate, just this time , as a favour between friends. He will be in touch with you.

Yes..... I've seen these types before.

Every annual costs $300, no snags, everything is wonderful.

Then he moves away/dies/goes broke.... and decades of deferred, missed, or forgotten maintenance is found by an eager apprentice at the big shop he was forced to go to. Sorry.... we can't defer that $2000 stall warning vane, it's listed right on the Type Certificate as required equipment. Sure you can fly it.... right after I put in the log book in big bold letters that it's unserviceable.

Er... nobody likes to be seen as a meal-ticket.

Are you kidding? If my shop depended on private maintenance, I would literally starve to death. Nobody seems to care about paying $120/hr to get their vehicle repaired, or the same for their boat or RV.... but now that aircraft shop rates are pushing three figures, aircraft owners are crying bloody murder...

Lots of bigger shops won't even touch a private aircraft unless its 604 registered..... which is strange because we all know how much money can be extracted from private owners of piston aircraft. There are aircraft in my area I won't work on for any price.....

The solution to both of our problems is simple: owner maintenance. Stamp out your data plates and fix it yourself. Just don't come asking to borrow a torque wrench, air compressor, compression tester, spark plug tester, HT lead tester, mag synchronizer, cable tensiometer, nitrogen bottle, aircraft jacks, tach checker, rivet gun, bucking bar, cylinder wrenches, maintenance manuals, etc etc etc....

And please don't do anything that will kill yourselves or other people, wreck your aircraft, and put another nail in the coffin for GA.

As for nitpicking..... anybody can find fault with someone else's work.