http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... e18207332/
Let's hope this works
IAM trying to get Sky Reginal/Rouge
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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leftoftrack
- Rank 8
- Posts: 825
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:10 pm
Re: IAM trying to get Sky Reginal/Rouge
So let me get this straight.
The IAM, the union that extended its strike warning in 2012. Extended it just long enough to help the company and the government collude to throw ACPA in with the IAM on back to work legislation. Remember ACPA never struck. This difference was completely lost once lumped in with the IAM and enabled Final offer selection arbitration, a brutal way to arbitrate, to be shoved down ACPA's throat and only ACPA's throat. The IAM, the striking union, walked off with regular interest based arbitration and the last deal was imposed on them. ACPA, the locked out union, saw massive takes by the company in FOS.
This same union doesn't like the out come they helped create. It's okay that FA's got gutted. It's okay ACPA was sliced in two. Now that the IAM can see the writing on the wall for what awaits them in 2016 they are crying foul????
The IAM threw ACPA, and as a result CUPE, under the bus to save themselves.
You helped make the bed. Your turn to lie it as far as I am concerned.
The IAM, the union that extended its strike warning in 2012. Extended it just long enough to help the company and the government collude to throw ACPA in with the IAM on back to work legislation. Remember ACPA never struck. This difference was completely lost once lumped in with the IAM and enabled Final offer selection arbitration, a brutal way to arbitrate, to be shoved down ACPA's throat and only ACPA's throat. The IAM, the striking union, walked off with regular interest based arbitration and the last deal was imposed on them. ACPA, the locked out union, saw massive takes by the company in FOS.
This same union doesn't like the out come they helped create. It's okay that FA's got gutted. It's okay ACPA was sliced in two. Now that the IAM can see the writing on the wall for what awaits them in 2016 they are crying foul????
The IAM threw ACPA, and as a result CUPE, under the bus to save themselves.
You helped make the bed. Your turn to lie it as far as I am concerned.
Re: IAM trying to get Sky Reginal/Rouge
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/ ... nal-offer/
In case you have forgotten the IAM's timing. IAM gives strike notice on a Wednesday for the following Monday. 48 hours is all that is required. It is unheard of in Air Canada negotiations that a union has ever given more than 48 hours. But the IAM does it for the first time.
Air Canada gives lockout notice to ACPA on the Thursday for the following Monday exactly in line with the IAM's strike deadline.
The government immediately intervenes initially through the CIRB on the Friday.
The government introduces back to work legislation on the Monday lumping the IAM and ACPA together but with separate instructions for each group. Draconian Final Offer selection legislation for ACPA. Interest based arbitration for the IAM. Special instructions to the arbitrator for ACPA that basically said the arbitrator is to give the company what it wants from ACPA. The IAM had no special instructions.
In all likelihood the government told the IAM to participate or go down the FOS road themselves.
No sympathy here.
In case you have forgotten the IAM's timing. IAM gives strike notice on a Wednesday for the following Monday. 48 hours is all that is required. It is unheard of in Air Canada negotiations that a union has ever given more than 48 hours. But the IAM does it for the first time.
Air Canada gives lockout notice to ACPA on the Thursday for the following Monday exactly in line with the IAM's strike deadline.
The government immediately intervenes initially through the CIRB on the Friday.
The government introduces back to work legislation on the Monday lumping the IAM and ACPA together but with separate instructions for each group. Draconian Final Offer selection legislation for ACPA. Interest based arbitration for the IAM. Special instructions to the arbitrator for ACPA that basically said the arbitrator is to give the company what it wants from ACPA. The IAM had no special instructions.
In all likelihood the government told the IAM to participate or go down the FOS road themselves.
No sympathy here.
Last edited by Fanblade on Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: IAM trying to get Sky Reginal/Rouge
The sad thing is, the IAM is by far the worst groups of employees AC has in the system. Some of the stations (YYT, YWG and few others are not too bad) unfortunately you end up always having to lump them in with the workers of YYZ, YOW, YUL etc.. The funny thing is the worst ramp crews in our system are at our "global hub" earning easily twice what others at other stations are earning. To add insult to injury they began the shit storm that others above have indicated, and now they are starting to read the writing on the wall.
Re: IAM trying to get Sky Reginal/Rouge
YWGguy,
I wasn't trying to attack the individuals in the IAM but rather their unions behaviour. I'm sure there are great employees everywhere. I personally have never met a mechanic I thought was not doing a good job and in an efficient manor.
Ramp crews? Yes it can be hit and miss. But a lot of that was a result of planning and equipment. Many changes have been made and I have been seeing far less misses overall. Still to many misses in certain stations but nevertheless clearly part of the problem was planning and equipment.
My message is simply this. Rouge can contract out any service it wants. This happened as a result of Final Offer Selection. Final Offer Selection happened as a result of company/government collusion that the IAM participated in.
-The pilots took an arbitration imposed 30- 40% cut to do the work at Rouge.
- CUPE refused the cuts and lost the work all together.
So far these are the only two groups impacted. I stress so far.
Every other employee group that currently provides services to Rouge, at company will, can now be faced with the same choice. Take a cut to keep the work or lose it all together.
Thanks IAM, 2016 should be fun for everyone and I hope extra fun for you.
Air Canada is going to want more and more Rouge. ACPA is going to be under increasing pressure to give it too them in exchange for a return to normal career progression. The current situation is a complete mess. Pilots in the 15-20 year mark are getting hammered. We are the only group to have completely lost DB pensions for new hires.
The last common employer application between AC's wholly owned subsidiary at the time, AC Regional and AC, took a decade to conclude and in the end AC won.
Good luck with that.
The only choice you have left is what you are going to say when the company tells you that if you want to keep the work? You have to do it for xx% less.
I wasn't trying to attack the individuals in the IAM but rather their unions behaviour. I'm sure there are great employees everywhere. I personally have never met a mechanic I thought was not doing a good job and in an efficient manor.
Ramp crews? Yes it can be hit and miss. But a lot of that was a result of planning and equipment. Many changes have been made and I have been seeing far less misses overall. Still to many misses in certain stations but nevertheless clearly part of the problem was planning and equipment.
My message is simply this. Rouge can contract out any service it wants. This happened as a result of Final Offer Selection. Final Offer Selection happened as a result of company/government collusion that the IAM participated in.
-The pilots took an arbitration imposed 30- 40% cut to do the work at Rouge.
- CUPE refused the cuts and lost the work all together.
So far these are the only two groups impacted. I stress so far.
Every other employee group that currently provides services to Rouge, at company will, can now be faced with the same choice. Take a cut to keep the work or lose it all together.
Thanks IAM, 2016 should be fun for everyone and I hope extra fun for you.
Air Canada is going to want more and more Rouge. ACPA is going to be under increasing pressure to give it too them in exchange for a return to normal career progression. The current situation is a complete mess. Pilots in the 15-20 year mark are getting hammered. We are the only group to have completely lost DB pensions for new hires.
The last common employer application between AC's wholly owned subsidiary at the time, AC Regional and AC, took a decade to conclude and in the end AC won.
Good luck with that.
The only choice you have left is what you are going to say when the company tells you that if you want to keep the work? You have to do it for xx% less.
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leftoftrack
- Rank 8
- Posts: 825
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:10 pm
Re: IAM trying to get Sky Reginal/Rouge
Losing a defined benefits pension is not the loss that everyone thinks it is. Remember the pension is fully funded now soon air canada is going to be taking a pension funding Holliday. Meaning those with the defined benefits are going to be riding the performance of the fund where those with the defined contribution will be able to find the same performance from mutual funds while still receiving company contributions. And when you die the money is 100% your estates. With defined benefits 35% goes back to the fund.
Defined benefit pensions were created to save the company money.
Defined benefit pensions were created to save the company money.
Re: IAM trying to get Sky Reginal/Rouge
FB
The IAM was looking out for the best interests of their members as they are supposed to do. The unions only hold hands as negotiations begin then it is a "free for all" as each union tries to get the biggest piece of the pie. A good strategy is to get the first piece, a bad strategy is to wait until everyone else has eaten.
Btw, ACPA was offered interest based arbitration and they refused it. You said we didn't strike. In fact, our leader attempted a desperate illegal strike which failed miserably.
Anyway, I think you are missing the point on this filing. More than likely the IAM has done this to show its members that they are responding to the creation of rouge, and more importantly to create some bargaining leverage for Negots 2016 by causing AC additional legal costs. Personally I think their efforts are futile.
The IAM was looking out for the best interests of their members as they are supposed to do. The unions only hold hands as negotiations begin then it is a "free for all" as each union tries to get the biggest piece of the pie. A good strategy is to get the first piece, a bad strategy is to wait until everyone else has eaten.
Btw, ACPA was offered interest based arbitration and they refused it. You said we didn't strike. In fact, our leader attempted a desperate illegal strike which failed miserably.
Anyway, I think you are missing the point on this filing. More than likely the IAM has done this to show its members that they are responding to the creation of rouge, and more importantly to create some bargaining leverage for Negots 2016 by causing AC additional legal costs. Personally I think their efforts are futile.
Re: IAM trying to get Sky Reginal/Rouge
Rather bee,
I am fully aware of where a unions focus is. What I am saying was this was over the line.
Leftoftrack,
I agree there are some benefits to DC versus DB. But maximizing money in the employees pocket isn't one of them.
If you are an AC employee go on to Aeronet/hr connect/total compensation.
Look up how much AC paid for your pension in 2013. Huge dollars. There is no DC pension anywhere that I know of that is as generous. In my case, if I were on the DC pension rather than the DB? The savings for the company would have been just over 50%.
DB pensions are only cheaper for the company in years of surplus. With surplus now defined at 110% and actuarial assessments required yearly we won't likely see abuse like in the past. Moreover it's about risk reward. Since the company bares all the risk in a DB plan, they should also reap the reward so long as it is done responsibly.
I am fully aware of where a unions focus is. What I am saying was this was over the line.
Leftoftrack,
I agree there are some benefits to DC versus DB. But maximizing money in the employees pocket isn't one of them.
If you are an AC employee go on to Aeronet/hr connect/total compensation.
Look up how much AC paid for your pension in 2013. Huge dollars. There is no DC pension anywhere that I know of that is as generous. In my case, if I were on the DC pension rather than the DB? The savings for the company would have been just over 50%.
DB pensions are only cheaper for the company in years of surplus. With surplus now defined at 110% and actuarial assessments required yearly we won't likely see abuse like in the past. Moreover it's about risk reward. Since the company bares all the risk in a DB plan, they should also reap the reward so long as it is done responsibly.
Re: IAM trying to get Sky Reginal/Rouge
ratherbee wrote:FB
The IAM was looking out for the best interests of their members as they are supposed to do. The unions only hold hands as negotiations begin then it is a "free for all" as each union tries to get the biggest piece of the pie. A good strategy is to get the first piece, a bad strategy is to wait until everyone else has eaten.
Btw, ACPA was offered interest based arbitration and they refused it. You said we didn't strike. In fact, our leader attempted a desperate illegal strike which failed miserably.
Anyway, I think you are missing the point on this filing. More than likely the IAM has done this to show its members that they are responding to the creation of rouge, and more importantly to create some bargaining leverage for Negots 2016 by causing AC additional legal costs. Personally I think their efforts are futile.
"...desperate illegal strike...." WTF. We were being strong armed by both the Company and the Government. JMB put out a call to action and barely anyone took note. What an embarrasment. We laid down and took a severe beating with narry a whimper. We got exactly what we deserved as a group by not heeding a call from our MEC Chair in a desperate hour. I was one of the tiny minority who listened. They knew we were weak. Had we all stood united, arm-in-arm against tyranny, they might be treating us with a little more respect right now. The multi-hundred million FOS cash grab would not exist, because they knew we wouldn't have stood for it. However, that chapter is closed.
Who, by the way, is championing our cause against the "Constitution violating" Bill C33 on Parliment Hill?......absolutely no one. You and I are on our own. Rouge is the greatest thing to come along since the "look out for yourself, and screw the rest" attitude emerged. Huge dollars to be pocketed at the expense of Mainline DBM's. For the next round, let's get in "first" and beg for rotting scraps.....but beware, even those are going to cost us.
DP.
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Stick-Shaker
- Rank 4
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:39 pm
Re: IAM trying to get Sky Reginal/Rouge
Fanblade wrote:So let me get this straight.
The IAM, the union that extended its strike warning in 2012. Extended it just long enough to help the company and the government collude to throw ACPA in with the IAM on back to work legislation. Remember ACPA never struck. This difference was completely lost once lumped in with the IAM and enabled Final offer selection arbitration, a brutal way to arbitrate, to be shoved down ACPA's throat and only ACPA's throat. The IAM, the striking union, walked off with regular interest based arbitration and the last deal was imposed on them. ACPA, the locked out union, saw massive takes by the company in FOS.
This same union doesn't like the out come they helped create. It's okay that FA's got gutted. It's okay ACPA was sliced in two. Now that the IAM can see the writing on the wall for what awaits them in 2016 they are crying foul????
The IAM threw ACPA, and as a result CUPE, under the bus to save themselves.
You helped make the bed. Your turn to lie it as far as I am concerned.
Amen brother. You hit that square on the jaw.
If it ain't fried, it ain't chicken baby!
Re: IAM trying to get Sky Reginal/Rouge
[/quote]
"...desperate illegal strike...." WTF. We were being strong armed by both the Company and the Government. JMB put out a call to action and barely anyone took note.
DP.[/quote]
All very predictable too. ACPA chose to go to war with the Company even trying to lead a desperate hostile takeover -really? ACPA lied to and insulted the Labour Minister while trying desperately to keep her from interfering. As for JMB is was really just a nudge and a wink from him not a desperate call to action. If a union is going to invoke the last desperate tactic it has available in its arsenal then the leader should lead an unrelenting charge and be prepared to go to jail. Instead he led a hasty Monty Python style retreat wringing his hands about a meagre letter of expectation on his employment file.
Sorry you got wrapped up in the emotion of it all. Hopefully we can all learn from this. After reading the audit it appears that ignorance was a far greater villain than tyranny.
"...desperate illegal strike...." WTF. We were being strong armed by both the Company and the Government. JMB put out a call to action and barely anyone took note.
DP.[/quote]
All very predictable too. ACPA chose to go to war with the Company even trying to lead a desperate hostile takeover -really? ACPA lied to and insulted the Labour Minister while trying desperately to keep her from interfering. As for JMB is was really just a nudge and a wink from him not a desperate call to action. If a union is going to invoke the last desperate tactic it has available in its arsenal then the leader should lead an unrelenting charge and be prepared to go to jail. Instead he led a hasty Monty Python style retreat wringing his hands about a meagre letter of expectation on his employment file.
Sorry you got wrapped up in the emotion of it all. Hopefully we can all learn from this. After reading the audit it appears that ignorance was a far greater villain than tyranny.
