Annual inspection taking a really long time - options?

[Posthumane]

Meecka, I don't think most owners have a hate on for AME's, but it seems that most owners have had bad experiences at some point in time that makes them very suspicious. I've had good experiences too, my previous annual is an example of one where things went smoothly even with a few snags that came up. The AME explained to me what the issues were which ones were high priority, the options I had, and the best way to go about them.

In regards to doing research, what exactly do you mean by that? It seems a lot of people expect that aviators are an old boys club who all know each other and you should be able to get in touch with everybody at a moment's notice to find out who to go to for what. When a person gets there license and decides to buy a plane, how do they know who to turn to for advice on hiring the best shop for them? Every AME that I know of in the area (of which there are very few) has had some people give glowing reviews and some people bad mouthing them.

To address another item though, I think there is a difference between a cheap owner asking and AME to reduce their rate, work for free, pencil whip items, etc. (which are all unethical on the owner's part), and providing the AME with an aircraft that genuinely requires less work for them. To compare to a car dealership, for example, you can either bring your car in saying "it's making some noise, please fix it" or you can diagnose the problem yourself and bring it in saying "please replace the XXXX." You can go further by removing the part yourself and going to the parts department to just buy the part and install yourself. The dealership is happy with all of these options as their shop rate doesn't change, just the amount of work they have to do.

Another example is an autobody shop, where you can bring them in a rusted hulk and say "make it beautiful", or you can cut out the rust and weld in new panels if you know how, and get them to prep and paint the car, or you can do all the time consuming sanding and other prep work and just get them to paint it. Again, every autobody shop owner I've talked to would be fine with any of those as their shop rate is the same, just the amount of work changes. Of course in both of those scenarios you are responsible for the outcome if you do a bad job diagnosing or prepping and have to deal with the consequences. If the prep work isn't up to snuff the shop guy will generally call you and let you decide if you want them to touch it up/redo it (at their shop rate), take it back to do more prep and return it when it's better, or just spray anyway knowing that the outcome won't be as good. Some places won't give you the third option, understandably, since a poor paint job may lower their reputation even if it wasn't their fault.

So how does this relate to aircraft? You can either bring your aircraft to an AME and say "Annual is due, have at 'er" or you can bring it in with a list of AD's to be complied with, all inspection panels open and cowlings removed, you can send away the ELT/transponder/encoder/etc. to be recertified yourself, and so on. You aren't asking the AME to work for a lower rate, you are simply giving him less work to do. It saves you money by saving him time.

[Bede]

When you select an AME you want:
1) competent
2) fast
3) inexpensive

Unfortunately, you can get only 2 of the 3. Sometimes you will find guys who charge $50/hr. But then you get the bill and the annual took 3 days and the clock kept ticking as the AME talked on the phone, went for lunch, etc.

The only exception I have seen to the above is Northern Airborne in YXL. They charge a fair price, they turn you around really fast, especially when you need things done ASAP and they do great work. It's too bad they're not in every city.

[whereeaglessoar]

whereeaglessoar wrote:
There is a certain competant and honest AME in Vernon who will take care of your airplane and will do it at half the regular AMO rate, just this time , as a favour between friends. He will be in touch with you.

Yes..... I've seen these types before.

Every annual costs $300, no snags, everything is wonderful.

Then he moves away/dies/goes broke.... and decades of deferred, missed, or forgotten maintenance is found by an eager apprentice at the big shop he was forced to go to. Sorry.... we can't defer that $2000 stall warning vane, it's listed right on the Type Certificate as required equipment. Sure you can fly it.... right after I put in the log book in big bold letters that it's unserviceable.

Fly for pie,,, That AME in Vernon did an annual inspection on a certain twin Cessna, The owners were Dentists without a clue ! They could not afford to do a proper annual and sourced an engine from an A/C wrecker. I installed it and the crankcase halves were milled soo much that you couldnt install any parts between the halves !!! The aircraft is still sitting there after 3 years with 2 1/2 pages of DEFECTS written in the logbooks. The AMO and AME did everything by the book AND you would not find a more ethical and capable AMO in CANADA than this one !!

[iflyforpie]

Sure you can.

I had a wealthy businessman in a similar situation. I told him to run, not walk away from the aircraft and that if he got it, I would not work on it..... and that advice was free.

That same aircraft was eventually finished by a friend of that businessman, and came in here once with a jammed landing gear. I can only imagine the heartache and cost it took to get airworthy, and the other problems it had had that I am not aware of.



Why would that AME in Vernon even start work on the aircraft with the owners trying to stuff an engine from a junkyard into it? it is obviously for financial reasons that they were doing so... so making a safe airworthy aircraft and a low bill two mutually exclusive things. Was it to milk a little bit and then say that it is too expensive to finish?

[whereeaglessoar]

Pie,

The inspection was completed and snags were reviewed with the owner(s) and the owner supplied engine was installed THEN, the very minute the owner(s) indicated they had limited funds to complete the required work ( non-deferrable snags), the AMO completed only that which was necessary ( log entries, post runup etc) and now the plane sits!
Pie, You are making assumptions on something you know NOTHING about !

[azimuthaviation]

The solution to both of our problems is simple: owner maintenance.

Tank the value of your plane and severely limit its capabilities in order to save some maintenance costs that you probably werent going to do anyways. OM just doesnt make sense to me...


And if you are flying into controlled airspace you still need the altimetry devices maintained according to CARs 571 appendi (is that a real word?) B and F, and the ELT recertified every year... How much are you saving?

The only reasons I think OM is somewhat justifiable is to put in some unapproved mods that you cant do to a certified aircraft. But to cheapskate on maintenance? I dont get it.

[Colonel Sanders]

Deleted

[Posthumane]

Homebuilt is definitely the way to go, and knowing what I know now my next plane will definitely be one (though I don't have time to build one myself right now so I'll buy). Possibly an RV, sonnex, Zenith... An RV would be the easiest bet probably as there are a number of people around who are quite knowledgeable about them. However, I would have to sell this plane first.

I'm not convinced owner maintenance is the way to go on this plane. Although the concept seems interesting, the inability to fly to the US is a bit of a deal breaker. Not that I DO fly to the US on a regular basis, but I like to have the option being less than an hour from the border.

And no, I am not referring to tornadoes at
Little Rock, AR.

Hilarious.

[l_reason]

I've owned my little tin bug smasher for 9 years and 1300 hours of flight time. I've been going to the same AMO/AME 7nm NE of YXU since I've owned it. Sure I hold my breath every year when he hands me the bill but I feel he has been fair. I have been graced with the ability to save a bunch of labor hours doing much of the unskilled work myself. It gets rolled into the hangar (freshly washed) oil drained, top plugs removed and every inspection panel, cowl, floorboard and seats removed. I do my absolute best to make his "Inspection" super easy. I point out any known smoking rivets or questionable engine or flight characteristics and leave him with her to do his thing.

I'm really fortunate he lets me help with most all of the work. I've replaced or overhauled most of my plane in the 9 years. Here is the short list, new (slick) mags, 6 overhauled/referb jugs (due to my addiction to auto fuel), radio x2, x-ponder, all control cables/pulleys, all hoses, tires/brakes, full strip and paint, new seats, side windows, rebuilt scott tail wheel, new exhaust, full engine overhaul with 4 new ECI jugs, engine mount NDT.

All that on a plane that weighs in at less then 900 pounds empty. I go into my annual every year with a plan of what I'm going to spend money on to make it better then it was last year. I've put far more money into it then the purchase price of 25k. Just don't tell my wife!

I look at it this way, I pay two insurance bills each year, $1050 for a piece of paper I hope to never use. I spend a MINIMUM of $2000 per year at John's on maintenance so I don't have to use the other bit of paper.

Cheap, fast, reliable. Pick two.

[Shiny Side Up]

There's good AMEs out there, if you want to find them, you got to have a bit of knowledge yourself. just like everything else, you have to have some capability of sorting out the BS. Just like getting someone to work on your car. Never hand someone something and say "do what you have to do to fix it". Have an idea what needs to be done. Don't be suckered by a low shop rate. I did some research a while back when we were having problems with the shop we were using and found that while they had a low shop rate, they were billing twice as many hours. In the end the more expensive shop was worth it with lower bills since they were more efficient with their time.

Here's something I discovered owning motorcycles, which applies to airplanes. If you wnat to shop around for a maintainer, or someone to do work for you, bring them small jobs first. A good tester is replacing a tire. For example, I had one shop (for my motorcycle) who ended up keeping the wheel for a week, when they said I could come back for it later that afternoon and charged $50 for the process, another one did it for $20 while I waited.

Watch them while they work if you can. I know one AMO I wasn't impressed with where the guys on the floor didn't seem to know what the wheels on their tool box were for. A half hour of watching them stroll around the floor was a little maddening to watch, needless to say that resulted in a lot more shop hours being charged. Do the wrenches all clatter to the floor when lunch time hits, or do guys finish their tasks and then go eat? This kind of activity cost me pumping the gear down one day, not impressed. FYI the Whipline amphibs, take about 20 pumps of that stupid plunger to accomplish this task if you get only two wheels down and need another two. Not something that you want to do while trying to fly, that plunger takes two hands to use.

Dad (an auto mechanic) a long time ago gave sage advice: "You want to learn about how these things work yourself, you can't trust most people who say they can fix things." He also derisively calls most people in his trade "parts replacers" since that how most people trouble shoot.

[SeptRepair]

The solution to both of our problems is simple: owner maintenance.

Tank the value of your plane and severely limit its capabilities in order to save some maintenance costs that you probably werent going to do anyways. OM just doesnt make sense to me...


And if you are flying into controlled airspace you still need the altimetry devices maintained according to CARs 571 appendi (is that a real word?) B and F, and the ELT recertified every year... How much are you saving?

The only reasons I think OM is somewhat justifiable is to put in some unapproved mods that you cant do to a certified aircraft. But to cheapskate on maintenance? I dont get it.

What I think Ifly is getting at and I agree with, is owner maintenance will allow you to sign off the annual yourself and put the liability squarely on your own shoulders. Its not about cost. Its about liability and having to educate the owners what their responsibilities are.
For example, I just finished an annual on a typical 4 seater and have some defects that need rectifying. Frayed trim cables, worn aileron cables that have flattened wear at the pulleys, push pull rods ends worn, corroded flight controls. You know the typical things a 10000 hr former flight school aircraft would have. In reality all the cables should be replaced and all the pulleys too. They are all worn. That is 3500.00 for the parts alone not including labor to install and rig the systems afterwards. You can see the tears welling up when I have to be the bad guy and tell him what I have found. I know what he paid and I know the worth of the aircraft. I feel for him as it will be easily over 6k before this annual is over. I cant blame him if he doesn't have the money for these repairs, its a hard pill to swallow. I didnt do the prepurchase ( a loud mouth know it all pilot did it for the owner), but you cant ask me to sign off the annual with these known defects and not record my findings. I can work with you and we can change the cables out over time. Maybe over the next 3 annuals, but I do want to cover my ass. As I tell them when standing in court with a judge and a crying widow who claims her husband would never fly an aircraft that had bad cables. "He isnt that kind of guy, he is safe", who do you think wins when we had a gentleman's handshake that the defects would be picked away at. I'm a professional and know the regulations, he is a recreational pilot who needs to be spoon fed the regulations. I know better, he doesnt ( or he doesnt care). I even sometimes catch my self saying the same thing of just move it to owner maintenance, its not because I want to see GA die its because I dont want to hold all the responsibility for your hobby. You can hire me to help you do your annual when you ultimately sign it off. I wont have to cough up 600 bucks a month for insurance. Its a win win.

[SeptRepair]

I've owned my little tin bug smasher for 9 years and 1300 hours of flight time. I've been going to the same AMO/AME 7nm NE of YXU since I've owned it. Sure I hold my breath every year when he hands me the bill but I feel he has been fair. I have been graced with the ability to save a bunch of labor hours doing much of the unskilled work myself. It gets rolled into the hangar (freshly washed) oil drained, top plugs removed and every inspection panel, cowl, floorboard and seats removed. I do my absolute best to make his "Inspection" super easy. I point out any known smoking rivets or questionable engine or flight characteristics and leave him with her to do his thing.

I'm really fortunate he lets me help with most all of the work. I've replaced or overhauled most of my plane in the 9 years. Here is the short list, new (slick) mags, 6 overhauled/referb jugs (due to my addiction to auto fuel), radio x2, x-ponder, all control cables/pulleys, all hoses, tires/brakes, full strip and paint, new seats, side windows, rebuilt scott tail wheel, new exhaust, full engine overhaul with 4 new ECI jugs, engine mount NDT.

All that on a plane that weighs in at less then 900 pounds empty. I go into my annual every year with a plan of what I'm going to spend money on to make it better then it was last year. I've put far more money into it then the purchase price of 25k. Just don't tell my wife!

I look at it this way, I pay two insurance bills each year, $1050 for a piece of paper I hope to never use. I spend a MINIMUM of $2000 per year at John's on maintenance so I don't have to use the other bit of paper.

Cheap, fast, reliable. Pick two.

Great advice, but I find people like you are few and far between.

[Posthumane]

I have been graced with the ability to save a bunch of labor hours doing much of the unskilled work myself. It gets rolled into the hangar (freshly washed) oil drained, top plugs removed and every inspection panel, cowl, floorboard and seats removed. I do my absolute best to make his "Inspection" super easy. I point out any known smoking rivets or questionable engine or flight characteristics and leave him with her to do his thing.

I'm really fortunate he lets me help with most all of the work. I've replaced or overhauled most of my plane in the 9 years. Here is the short list, new (slick) mags, 6 overhauled/referb jugs (due to my addiction to auto fuel), radio x2, x-ponder, all control cables/pulleys, all hoses, tires/brakes, full strip and paint, new seats, side windows, rebuilt scott tail wheel, new exhaust, full engine overhaul with 4 new ECI jugs, engine mount NDT.

This is basically what I'm heading towards, and I think most owners will agree that working with your AME to learn about your aircraft so that you can do a lot of these things is beneficial. It would be nice if some basic aircraft maintenance could be taught at the PPL level to those who want it, at least so that a new owner could know what basic work they could do to make the AME's job easier/quicker. It's unfortunate that some people have this huge aversion to owners learning from AME's and say things like "Try taking your car to the dealership and asking to help with the work, and see what happens."

[Colonel Sanders]

Deleted

[l_reason]

This is basically what I'm heading towards, and I think most owners will agree that working with your AME to learn about your aircraft so that you can do a lot of these things is beneficial. It would be nice if some basic aircraft maintenance could be taught at the PPL level to those who want it, at least so that a new owner could know what basic work they could do to make the AME's job easier/quicker. It's unfortunate that some people have this huge aversion to owners learning from AME's and say things like "Try taking your car to the dealership and asking to help with the work, and see what happens."

Thankfully having work done on your plane is not like having a car worked on at the Toyota dealer. If you are someone your AME let's work in his shop be grateful. Show up with coffee, help push planes around, clean up your mess, more or less act like a brand new apprentice should on his first week at a new job. You should also keep track of every screw you take from his stores and expect to pay for them, keep track of every task you do so he knows what you've done (messed with).

If you are asking him to work at your hangar across the airport or at another airport (farmers field you've just landed in) plan for the clock to start running when he starts putting his tools together at HIS hangar. You are about to pay for shop rate for him to drive to your location, fix the plane and drive back home. You should also make sure you buy lunch and the beer. AME's are not like owner/pilots, we play with our airplanes for the enjoyment, an AME works on them for the MONEY. Always keep that in mind.

I was given some advice before I got my plane, it went something like this. Wake up every morning and flush a nice crisp red $50 bill down the toilet (don't give it to the wife, don't give it to charity). You want it to feel like an absolute waste of $50. When that daily $50 stops bothering you, you are ready to start shopping for an airplane. Note: ad another $50 for each 2 cylinders, retractable gear, float, ski, and pair of seats.

[Posthumane]

Colonel Sanders, although the list of elementary maintenance is useful, it's not what I had in mind. What I meant was not work that an owner can do without an AME, but what an owner can do to help and AME do his job. For example, removing the altimeter and encoder are not on that list as an AME is needed to do a pitot static test once they're hooked back up, but taking them out and sending them away prior to inspecion is one thing that you can do before the start of an annual to help speed things along. Conversely, although an owner can replace spark plugs and do compression tests, most AMEs will want to check compression and check the plugs themselves before they sign off on an annual.

[Colonel Sanders]

Feelings

[Posthumane]

Ah, see Colonel, that's the kind of golden information that I wish someone had gone through with me when I had first bought the plane, before I started just taking it to the local AMO to have everything done, rather than having to pick it up bit by bit from various offhand remarks from the AME's.

I don't know why you keep feeling the need to prepend so many of your posts with self disparaging remarks. I find most of them very informative, and those that don't like them can f*** off. Keep up the information flow for us newbs!

[revr]

I'm not very bright, and I don't know very
much about aviation, but if you do the following
during BEFORE your annual inspection:

- go to the TC website and print off your current
AD's, mark any applicable repetitive ones from
the past, check any new ones for applicability,
and make sure technical logs are up to date;

- swing the compass

- thoroughly clean the aircraft and circle
any smoking rivets and cracks with an
eraseable red marker for repair by your
AME

- remove the ELT and send it off

- remove the cowlings and clean them with
mineral spirits. Again, mark damage with
an erasable red marker

- do the leakdown test

- thoroughly clean the engine and compartment
with mineral spirits and rags and brushes. If
possible, trace oil leaks (eg rocker covers, oil
drain tubes, etc) and check for loose and missing
bolts and nuts.

- check wiring for damage (eg to insulation) and
security (eg field wire on back fo alternator).

- remove exhaust heat muffs for AD inspection

- check intake and exhaust for security, cracks,
leaks and torque (bright light, 10x)

- inspect cylinder heads and crankcase for cracks

- inspect and repair engine baffling (it cracks) and
replace seals as reqd

- remove the sparkplugs and take a picture of them
in the tray for your AME

- clean and gap and rotate your sparkplugs and reinstall
them with some anti-seize and a torque wrench with new
copper washers

- drain your oil and clean screen / change + cut open filter,
take more pictures as reqd

- check magneto timing

- replace air filter with new

- lubricate engine controls

- remove prop spinner as required

- remove all other airframe inspection panels and
fairings (and clean them) and replace worn hardware

- remove wheel pants if installed

- replace worn tires with new tires and tubes, and
at the same time repack bearings and replace brake
pads and top up brake fluid, change puck o-ring if
leaking;

- service nosewheel/tailwheel as required

- remove interior


then your AME does the annual inspection IAW
CAR 625 App B (look it up) ...


then after that, you put the aircraft back together ...

You might:

1) save some money
2) learn more about your airplane
3) appreciate the process a bit more

but what would I know? Nothing about aviation,
certainly. I have only been maintaining this engine
for 43 years now. I am tremendously junior to
everyone here, whom I am told have all spent
70 and 80 years in the hangar, spinning wrenches.

I also know nothing about Lycomings (either
parallel or angle valve, or carbureted or fuel
injected, either with or without inverted system)
and I know nothing about Kinner, Wasp Jr and
Wasp radial engines, and I know nothing about
geared engines (Continental, Lycoming, Wasp)
and I know nothing about turbine engines (L39).
I certainly know nothing about propellers, either
wood or metal, fixed pitch or constant speed
(normal or counter-weighted) and certainly
nothing about two or three-bladed McCauley
or Hartzell or MT or Sensenich props.

Please don't clean your engine compartment before your AME looks at it, we like to see for our selves if there are any leaks and that way we can find them easier too.

the list of elementary tasks is clear what you can do.
it doesn't say you can gap your plugs only remove clean and install.
it doesn't say you can repair your engine baffles.
it doesn't say you can replace tubes in your wheels.
it doesn't say you can replaced brake pads.
etc, etc, etc.
if your ame says change your brake pads and tubes etc than that is fine but don't do these things before bringing your aircraft to an AME for your annual, you may just upset him before before he even starts your annual.

[SeptRepair]

All good advice for an owner to do. Learn your aircraft as much as you can and do all the elementary things you can. In reality you can fly 500 hrs, do your own 50/100hr inspections if you wish (in the scope of elementary maintenance), but only need to take it in for an annual inspection once a year ( talking private aircraft here). If you bring your aircraft to my hanger with screw driver and rags in hand and do half the menial work for me during the annual inspection, i'm still going to charge you my standard flat rate for the annual. I don't need donuts or beer, although the gesture is nice.

[whereeaglessoar]

Sept, spot on!

Neither do I need beer nor donuts to feed my family. A flat rate is regardless of how much work the owner does. Does Canadian Tire provide discounted labour IF you remove the tires for them while the car is on the stand ?
I once had 6 partners in a small rag-wing piper working on the plane ,, what a Joke !!!
Im all for owner awareness and being a part of the annual but i am NOT for undercutting my brethrens income ( food on the table for the children) just so that some well-to-do owner can boast that he saved $300 bucks because of his really nice AME !!!!

Somewheres between incompetent,cheating AME s/AMO s and AME s who allow themselves to be abused ( making it difficult for other good AME s ), are a few good men !!!!!

[Colonel Sanders]

Deleted.

[revr]

it doesn't say you can replace tubes

You re-use tubes? Nice.

you missed the point,
pilots cant change tubes, I CAN.

[Colonel Sanders]

Feelings

[photofly]

you missed the point,
pilots cant change tubes, I CAN.

Don't be ridiculous. Of course owners can change tubes, and authorize anyone else to do it for them (it doesn't have to be a pilot).

No they can't; it's not on the list of elementary work.

Nor is removing the split pin to take the wheel nut off, or re-torquing the wheel hub nuts. But both of those - along with replacing the tube - are needed in order to change the tire, which is on the list. So you can do those things too.

i am NOT for undercutting my brethrens income ( food on the table for the children)

Oh please. Leave the communist rhetoric outside.