Best Company For New CPL in YYC

[Partytime226]

Hey fogboundbird,

Anything is possible, as long you are determined and keep a positive attitude. I was in your shoes once, I was a 200 hour wonder and I wanted to live and work in Calgary. A lot of people told me I was stupid and I'd be wasting my time. But I didn't listen. I kept my mind focus on one thing and I wasn't going to stop until I achieved what I set out to do. I was working ramp at AC when I first moved to YYC and in the meantime, I was sending resume's to all the small companies on the field often, then I would go drop off my resume in person. It took over 5 months before I finally heard something back. Got an interview for a ramp position with one of the companies +RA mentioned and then the rest is history. I worked at that company for 5 years and left with over 3,000hrs. At one point, I seriously thought it was never going to happen but then I got a message from a random pilot in Calgary who told me to keep my head up and keep applying places. I later ended up flying with that guy and became one of my best mentors. So keep you head up dude, just zone out all these negative comments on here. +RA's comment is bang on. Good luck on your journey to become a professional aviator. One day you'll look back and say it was all worth it. Cheers.

[SRV]

If you want to have an ANGRY rant about the state of our PROFESSION then why don't you create another thread INSTEAD of hijacking this poor guys. I'm not saying I disagree with you BUT there is a time and a place, this ISN'T it.

Isn't it annoying when people capitalize random words in a sentence?

A TWIT indeed! +1

[Illya Kuryakin]

If you want to have an ANGRY rant about the state of our PROFESSION then why don't you create another thread INSTEAD of hijacking this poor guys. I'm not saying I disagree with you BUT there is a time and a place, this ISN'T it.

Isn't it annoying when people capitalize random words in a sentence?

A TWIT indeed! +1

Enjoy your ramp jobs, you whiny, snivelling little people!
Illya

[BTyyj]

Enjoy your ramp jobs, you whiny, snivelling little people!

I guess you'd rather come on here and bitch about it than do anything to change it, a common trait I've noticed amongst the older generation.

The only thing worse than being blind is having sight but no vision. These issues were and are fixable; always have been and always will. Who's going to roger up though?

[HighDreams]

I see a lot of problems too in this industry. I can't do nothing about it myself because I'm a fairly new low time guy. Maybe I'll be a pioneer of change though, by the time I'm 50 and all grayed up :p Someone has too. Not just one, but a majority, if not nothing will change. By that time though everyone may be flying their own little personal cars like the Jetsons or planes will fly themselves. They pretty much can now, with the pilots more so being system managers at the airline level. So since I have no say now, I guess I'm going back to trying to tough it out and make it in this industry.

[trey kule]

it, a common trait I've noticed amongst the older generation.

Here is the challenge we old farts face. The first thing is to define the problem before you can seek a solution.

And it is a bit difficult when we see a problem, and then have a whole generation (or majority thereof) come on here and tell us that ramping is the only way. We dont understand, and we are just being grumpy.

Well...nothing is going to change for the new CPLs coming up as long as they think that is the only way to progress. And , of course, companies that will hire someone with a two week old PPC from another company. Some of us are trying. No hiring for any ground position if you have a valid pilot's license. No hiring pilots who are job hopping, or have or are working for certain sleazeball companies....as those pilots are part of the problem. Impossible to help those who refuse to help themselves though.

[Diadem]

No hiring for any ground position if you have a valid pilot's license.

What if they aren't trying to get into a flying position? What if they just enjoy being around airplanes and need a way to make money? Not everyone has a CPL because they plan on working as a pilot, and I don't think it's fair to totally dismiss a whole group of people who are qualified and willing to do the job.

[trey kule]

Fair enough question. I will consider it in future, but to the best of my knoeledge, such a situation has never occurred in a company I have worked for.

[Illya Kuryakin]

We do hire pilots. We will turn around any pilot who has worked as a "pilot in bondage" and send him/her right back to the parking lot. You are not what we are looking for. Before you stand up on your hind legs, and blame our generation for all your woes, keep in mind, we are NOT the ones accepting non flying jobs to "start out" in the industry. You are. And we (some of the best places out there) will NOT hire you. We have nothing to prove to you...you have to prove yourselves to us. We run the show. Them is the breaks. And, I'm outa here.
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

I don't think it's fair to totally dismiss a whole group of people who are qualified and willing to do the job.

News flash: life is not fair. Consider yourself dismissed.
Illya

[Tail-Chaser]

We do hire pilots. We will turn around any pilot who has worked as a "pilot in bondage" and send him/her right back to the parking lot.

Just to make sure I'm reading you right, you turn around any pilot who's worked under a bond agreement?

[BTyyj]

Please explain to me what low-time pilots can do to better their situation.

The number of direct entry flying jobs is very small, with the exception of instructing of course. The majority of positions require a period of time on the ramp or dock before making flightline. That's the reality, no hoping or thinking differently will change that. As long as there's a gross oversupply of labor, low-time pilots will never gain the leverage required to attain any better working conditions.

The solution to this is to decrease supply of CPLs by limiting the number issued. This is something the current generation of experience pilots has the opportunity to change, but I guess they'd rather sit on their high horse and point fingers.

Illya, I'm not sure why you made this personal- you don't know me or my background at all. Although saying it over the internet doesn't say much, I will tell you that I'd happily lose my CPL and move on if a system were implemented to limit CPL issuance, just to see better work conditions in this industry.

[trey kule]

The majority of positions require a period of time on the ramp or dock before making flightline. That's the reality, no hoping or thinking differently will change that. As long as there's a gross oversupply of labor, low-time pilots will never gain the leverage required to attain any better working conditions.

It is a difficult situation for the new CPL, I will not deny that. And it takes fortitude to swim against the stream of pilot whores and slimy companies. But it can be done.

There are only so many openings for new pilots. And yes supply exceeds demand. So some rather sleazy companies have seized the opportunity to take advantage of the situation. Why? Because, they are not destination companies, they know pilots will be leaving as soon as they can get that all so important time to them.

Do you want to work for that kind of company? Do you want to work with pilots who will work for peanuts in a completely focussed career path?

If there ever really becomes a pilot shortage in Canada , you will see these types of companies in a world of hurt. They will, of course, simply lower their hiring standards, reduce training, and hope for the best. Bit is not to long ago that I witnessed a company with a fleet of king airs pretty much hiring anyone who walked in the door. Took almost a year for their luck to run out.

On the other side of the coin, are pilots who will take advantage of a company. Obtain training, and then immediately jump ship. I do not like bonds, but I understand the need for them. And by bonds, I mean an employment contract. Not some scheme to have a new pilot pay for their own training first. (Money up front, or a loan of some sort or the other..those are not bonds. They are profit centers for a company who is really in the FTU business)


What can new pilots do about it? I think you know the answer, but human nature is what it is, and we can go round and round here all day.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Great post Trey! Every point is valid, and true. Required reading.
Illya

[esp803]

We will turn around any pilot who has worked as a "pilot in bondage" and send him/her right back to the parking lot.

Are all bonds evil? Probably. I've only signed one bond in my life:

It was a 1 year, $4,000 prorated bond (no money changed hands). For this they typed me on the BE20, BE30 and sent me to C208 Sim. On top of that, when I was flying the 208 my peak month I made close to 12k. Does deciding to make 60K in 7 months of work make me the scum of the earth? I think with those types it made me more employable, and I could have easily jumped shipped... they also treated me very well, payed me very well, gave me all the time off I wanted, great benefits, paid for my tuition at the college in unrelated fields, sponsored sports teams that I was part of, allowed me to live and work in my home town. All that for a little signature saying I would stay for 1 year? Done like Dinner.

E

[Illya Kuryakin]

We will turn around any pilot who has worked as a "pilot in bondage" and send him/her right back to the parking lot.

Are all bonds evil? Probably. I've only signed one bond in my life:

It was a 1 year, $4,000 prorated bond (no money changed hands). For this they typed me on the BE20, BE30 and sent me to C208 Sim. On top of that, when I was flying the 208 my peak month I made close to 12k. Does deciding to make 60K in 7 months of work make me the scum of the earth? I think with those types it made me more employable, and I could have easily jumped shipped... they also treated me very well, payed me very well, gave me all the time off I wanted, great benefits, paid for my tuition at the college in unrelated fields, sponsored sports teams that I was part of, allowed me to live and work in my home town. All that for a little signature saying I would stay for 1 year? Done like Dinner.

E

I would agree with you on this. No slave labour required. No money up front and, 4K for what you got is a pretty good deal. Plus, if you can't commit to ONE year, you need to soul search.

Now, as for the question from the OP. Answer....best company is the one that'll put you in the pilot seat! I thought this was a no brainer?
Illya

[esp803]

Now, as for the question from the OP. Answer....best company is the one that'll put you in the pilot seat! I thought this was a no brainer?
Illya

Couldn't have put it better myself.

E

[Illya Kuryakin]

We do hire pilots. We will turn around any pilot who has worked as a "pilot in bondage" and send him/her right back to the parking lot.

Just to make sure I'm reading you right, you turn around any pilot who's worked under a bond agreement?

If you've worked on a ramp in a "wannabe" program, or forked out money up front to "buy" a job, we ain't interested. Hope that's clear enough.
Illya

[airspeed250]

We do hire pilots. We will turn around any pilot who has worked as a "pilot in bondage" and send him/her right back to the parking lot.

Just to make sure I'm reading you right, you turn around any pilot who's worked under a bond agreement?

If you've worked on a ramp in a "wannabe" program, or forked out money up front to "buy" a job, we ain't interested. Hope that's clear enough.
Illya

If you've worked on a ramp in a "wannabe" program, or forked out money up front to "buy" a job, we ain't interested. Hope that's clear enough.
Illya

Quite a few pilots at the majors got their start on the ground with very good companies. That's great you hire low time pilots, except very few CPL's can find such a situation. What happens when you have a new CPL who is stuck in YYC/YWG for example, and the only option starting out is working the ramp or office for some of the best charter companies in the country? People have started with these firms in office and ramp positions, getting paid more than a FO salary, or even captains with some other operators in the middle of nowhere, making contacts, learning the company operations, and one day making it into a flying position, on well maintained equipment in a nice city. I don't see why you look down on anyone making a decision to start their career in this manner? My buddy is doing this, has a well paying office career in the meantime, gaining non flying resume experience in case he loses his medical down the road, and will soon be moving right seat. He is not an immature wannabe. He has hit foot in the door with a fantastic company he can spend the rest of his life at. He's has a professional degree, comes from a prior professional career, and simply decided this was a good lifestyle and entry path to becoming a pilot one day. Not everyone wants to live in the north, or a small town, or has the ability to move due to family reasons. Everyone has a different situation in life, and it's tough to look down on anyone who has the maturity to say they want to live in a major city and start their career with some of the longest running aviation companies in Canada, with nice aircraft, offering a career path which can easily lead to spending your entire career with the company. What's wrong with starting on a metro/king air and having your career progress to a dash 8 or Challenger 604, after sacrificing two years on the ground if you can even call it a sacrifice?

Illya, can you at least post what your company offers new CPL's in terms of pay, location, equipment and career progression?

[trey kule]

Airspeedie...


Wow. I continue to be amazed at the rationalizations people use to justify becoming whores.

If there are not to many positions for low time CPLs, how are those on the ramp moving up?? Well, because there are positions.

It is just that some sleazeball companies have closed the door to direct entry for these positions, in order to keep a supply of carrot chasing , CPL rated , ramp rats eager and willing to do anything to move ahead....anything. And the colleges, in their eagerness to be seen as unbiased, re inforce this situation..
Though, in fairness to the colleges, with the ego of their typical grad, they are between a rock and a hard place.

Trot out a few examples and try to justify things. I knew a pilot that won the lotto . Does that mean all pilots will win the lotto? And yep, there are those flying in the "big show". That started on the ramp.
And I think, from experience, that there are many there who have a tough time looking at themselves in the mirror some mornings. Not really the achievement people think if you have to sell your soul to get there.

But hey, nothing Illlya and I are going to post to change anyone's mind, so good luck with spending the first part of your career on the ramp...

[Diadem]

Wow. I continue to be amazed at the rationalizations people use to justify becoming whores...But hey, nothing Illlya and I are going to post to change anyone's mind, so good luck with spending the first part of your career on the ramp...

Perhaps it's because you continue to insult people who did nothing more than take a job on the ramp after every direct-entry option was exhausted. I certainly don't feel the need to take the advice of someone who repeatedly calls me a whore for exchanging labour for money.

If there are not to many positions for low time CPLs, how are those on the ramp moving up?? Well, because there are positions.

It is just that some sleazeball companies have closed the door to direct entry for these positions, in order to keep a supply of carrot chasing , CPL rated , ramp rats eager and willing to do anything to move ahead....anything. And the colleges, in their eagerness to be seen as unbiased, re inforce this situation..

For a while, there weren't any jobs. There was no movement. So let's say, theoretically, that there are zero job openings for a year. In that year, all of the kids who get their CPLs apply for work, and find none is available; they have to wait until things pick up again before any flying jobs are open. In the meantime, they can work in a fast food joint to earn their keep, or they can work for a charter company answering phones and handling aircraft. The charter company needs somebody to fill that position anyway, and the pilot can make the money on which he or she needs to live. When the time comes, the charter company starts looking at resumes from people from outside the company, as well as the person who's showed up for work on time every day and spent every spare minute studying AFMs and the COM. I think you can guess which one they would choose to hire.
So tell me, how is this company taking advantage of this pilot? How is the pilot worse off than if he or she refused to take the job on the principle that "I'm a pilot, I'll only work flying planes"? Should he or she have refused all work for that entire year and nuzzled gently at mommy and daddy's teat, or should he or she have gone to work in fast food? How is that an improvement?

[trey kule]

I certainly don't feel the need to take the advice of someone who repeatedly calls me a whore for exchanging labour for money.

Seems at bit senseless to answer your question, considering the above.

Good luck with your career.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Diadem, don't you have airplanes to load, floors to sweep, toilets to clean? You won't find a seat in an airplane here....
Illya

[Diadem]

Diadem, don't you have airplanes to load, floors to sweep, toilets to clean? You won't find a seat in an airplane here....
Illya

No, but I do have to go back to the left seat of my large turboprop, a seat in which I wouldn't be sitting had I not been willing to load airplanes. Of course, loading airplanes was one of my duties once I got moved into a flying position, so I don't see see how doing that as a rampie was beneath me.
Ironically, the same guys who are complaining about young guys doing manual labour for low pay on here are whinging on other threads about how "entitled" youth are these days. I would say refusing to work in anything other than a flying position and waiting for that job to be handed to you would be entitlement, wouldn't it? How is working for something entitlement?

[Illya Kuryakin]

Sure you are. So, you're an admitted "troll" then. Class.
A "large" turbo prop. Look, a flying pig!
Illya