May 1 startup day Air Georgian

[ZBBYLW]

Only 3 hours late! Improvement..

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/GGN7324

[Jack Klumpus]

Thanks for that zbbylw. Wouldn't it require more brake energy though to slow the aircraft down from 30kts than say slowing from 20? Or would that require riding the brakes? Guess unlike a turbo prop you can't slightly engage the reversers eh? Lol

Off topic.

Carbon brakes are a different beast. It's the application and not so much the 'intensity' of it. Hence riding the brakes would equate to multiple applications, whereas letting it speed up to 30 (Airbus) and making one application to slow it to 10 (our own SOP).

As for using reverse on a prop (or any other plane) at taxi speed? A- inefficient, B- makes noise for no reason, C- FOD.

I've flown different turbo props and never was reverser used at taxi speed (or below 70kts) like the other poster mentioned.

As for GGN, I don't wanna say good luck, because at the end of the day it's success means joining the race which is bringing down our industry. However we're all in this for the same reason, feeding our families. I just wish people could stand up and say no, and actually make it happen.

[Rogerdodger2]

Here's hoping it's an epic fail. Pray it's not at the expense of crews or pax.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I truly pray from the bottom of my heat that Georgian fails epically with this RJ experiment, and that all the scab pilots that CHOOSE to work there for bottom feeder wages are taking down along with them.

When pilots continually attack each other, they are doing exactly what management types want them to do. Do you do not see that they are playing us, one against the other ?

Pilots did not chose to take flying away from the main line and give it to cheaper feeders. Shareholders and management did! And government allowed it.

While the government is allowing airlines to squeeze a profit out of its crews, they are continuously increasing aviation and airport fees and taxes on the airlines.

When the feeders got too expensive for the liking of the shareholders and management, pilots were not the ones who chose to begin playing one feeder against the other in order to drive down prices. Shareholders and management did. And Government allowed it.

Airliner managers in Canada look with envy at those foreign feeders in the US and elsewhere who have RJ and ATR captains who sleep in crew lounge sofas and barely manage to make a living, and First officers who pay out of their pockets for the privilege to fly for free in order to build experience.

They would like to import such practices in Canada. The way to fight this is not to constantly attack other pilots. They are just unwilling victims of the system. I've received very eloquent emails from Georgian pilots who understand very well what is going on in their company but they are caught in those gears and just cannot extract themselves from them, like so many other pilots in this country.

Who is looking out for Canadian pilots in this country ? No one. It's about time we stop fighting each other and get together and fight back as one.......

[justwork]

Who is looking out for Canadian pilots in this country ? No one. It's about time we stop fighting each other and get together and fight back as one.......

Amen.

[flying4dollars]

Thanks for that zbbylw. Wouldn't it require more brake energy though to slow the aircraft down from 30kts than say slowing from 20? Or would that require riding the brakes? Guess unlike a turbo prop you can't slightly engage the reversers eh? Lol

Off topic.

Carbon brakes are a different beast. It's the application and not so much the 'intensity' of it. Hence riding the brakes would equate to multiple applications, whereas letting it speed up to 30 (Airbus) and making one application to slow it to 10 (our own SOP).

As for using reverse on a prop (or any other plane) at taxi speed? A- inefficient, B- makes noise for no reason, C- FOD.

I've flown different turbo props and never was reverser used at taxi speed (or below 70kts) like the other poster mentioned.

As for GGN, I don't wanna say good luck, because at the end of the day it's success means joining the race which is bringing down our industry. However we're all in this for the same reason, feeding our families. I just wish people could stand up and say no, and actually make it happen.

In the turbo prop we don't use reverse to slow down, we use ground fine, which is the intermediate. Reverse below 60kts is a no no. But your point about slowing down once from 30kts rather than more frequently at lower speeds makes sense.

[TGale]

Pilots do have the ability to resist the negative pressure on our profession. Say no. American Eagle pilots did it. Now THAT took some guts! The first step has been taken and the true colours of the rest of us will show in who will follow the lead.

[Koalemos]

Pilots do have the ability to resist the negative pressure on our profession. Say no. American Eagle pilots did it. Now THAT took some guts! The first step has been taken and the true colours of the rest of us will show in who will follow the lead.

It seems people are overlooking that the GGN pilot group did say No, they voted down the contract with 705 in it. You can thank the (now ex) Union President for putting it back in. I hear he isn't too popular over there.

While a few GGN pilots did bid over and are now in the right seat, the majority had to be hired off the street. Let he who cast the first stone ...

[rxl]

I absolutely agree that the GGN pilots who were on the property prior to the RJ venture are "unwilling victims".

However, anyone who has recently accepted employment there for the RJ is neither unwilling, nor are they a victim. These individuals are willing and eager participants in the downward spiral of all pilot's careers, including eventually their own.

Taking these new positions at GGN is selfish, opportunistic and short-sighted.

Lining your log book with "jet time" on the backs of your colleagues is just plain wrong.

[kingtwo]

I absolutely agree that the GGN pilots who were on the property prior to the RJ venture are "unwilling victims".

However, anyone who has recently accepted employment there for the RJ is neither unwilling, nor are they a victim. These individuals are willing and eager participants in the downward spiral of all pilot's careers, including eventually their own.

Taking these new positions at GGN is selfish, opportunistic and short-sighted.

Lining your log book with "jet time" on the backs of your colleagues is just plain wrong.

Amen +1

[justwork]

I absolutely agree that the GGN pilots who were on the property prior to the RJ venture are "unwilling victims".

However, anyone who has recently accepted employment there for the RJ is neither unwilling, nor are they a victim. These individuals are willing and eager participants in the downward spiral of all pilot's careers, including eventually their own.

Taking these new positions at GGN is selfish, opportunistic and short-sighted.

Lining your log book with "jet time" on the backs of your colleagues is just plain wrong.

If every unemployed qualified pilot in Canada said I'm not applying do you think the RJ's would be parked? Or do you think GGN would be in the process of submitting paper work for foreign workers? The planes would fly, someone would make more money. College, CALPA, whatever it is, something needs to happen.

You can't blame the pilots for taking an opportunity. You and I don't know their position. Maybe they're laid off, maybe they've been PFO'd from Air Canada and Westjet and this is the best gig they can get. It's easy to say something like "if we all said no this would never happen"... Ya it would, just with none residents, and likely for even cheaper.

Change needs to happen from the top or it just wont change.

[Heisenberg666]

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/#!/content/1.2632481

[rxl]

I couldn't agree with you more. Now, more than ever, we have to work together. One union - the "CALPA" ideal - would be a great start.
Unfortunately that ideal is not going to be achieved overnight, especially with the "every man for himself" mentality that seems to exist amongst pilots.
I have to ask you, in the mean time, just how low are you willing to have your wages and working conditions go before you stop saying "it's OK, that guy just needs a job." or before you say "it's just not worth it anymore"?
The hole that a potentially unified pilot group will have to dig itself out of keeps getting deeper and deeper. The newly minted RJ pilots at GGN have unfortunately chosen a path that facilitates the deepening of that hole by airline managements.

Don't forget that RJ captains at Jazz currently make between 100,000 to 120,000 per year. First officers are in the 60,000 to 75,000 range with some of the best working conditions in the business. I believe the numbers at GGN are more like 70,000 and 30,000.

[Inverted2]

Saw a 319 flight doing Charlottetown last night to help clean up the mess. I wonder how much money AC has saved so far with all the hotel rooms and charter flights? Not to mention thousands of pissed off customers.

[rxl]

There can be no position of strength until pilots stop flocking to companies like GGN, like SKY or any other operator offering substandard WAWCON and say "sure, I"ll do that job for 30 to 50 per cent less than my brethren".

[swervin]

Looks like yesterday was another stellar day for ggn. Most flights picked up by Jazz or AC. FOR THE FLIGHTS THEY OPERATED ONLY 1 or 2 left on Sched, the rest were hours late. Talk about pissing off your customers...

[rxl]

What seems to be forgotten is the fact that "those who came before" HAVE fought long and hard and continue to fight to achieve and hopefully maintain the decent wages and working conditions that exist (for now) today in the industry.

The collective agreements at Jazz, Air Canada and Westjet did not happen over night. They are not the result of management benevolence.
These agreements have been established over many, many years and are the direct result of "those who came before" volunteering thousands upon thousands of hours of their own time in negotiations. They are the direct result of "those who came before" willing to risk it all by going on strike, not once, not twice but in some cases three times.
"Those who came before" are willing to risk all again.

What else would you like "those who came before" do for you?

[Koalemos]

It will be interesting to see if Jazz pilots are willing to maintain the high ground when AC comes a-calling in 2020 with a hatchet to CPA negotiations, even if it means they are on the street. Of course by then they prob will not be in a position to negotiate, between Sky and GGN taking more flying. GGN has access to classic Dash through merged Avmax, after all. I was also told that since GGN couldn't find RJ captains, they resorted to short term contract FLVs until the FOs get the required jet time. Wonder if that's true ... Wouldn't be surprised.

Given that it's AC that's driving the low cost regional trend, its not just the fault of GGN and Sky pilots for taking the jobs. Maybe ACPA and ALPA should take a long look in the mirror and ask how things got to this point. There's certainly enough blame to spread around.

[proper]

The more these new walmart carriers mess up, the more likely the work will go to solid proven companies. The work will open in these companies that have experience and good wawcon and allow those from the walmarts to work there.
If Sky and Ggn sink, Im not sorry to say that it will be a better industry. A costly mistake of upper capitalist management to assume we are all whores. Not just pilots but all jobs that support aircraft lift. Im happy to see that as always you get what you pay for. I just pray the cost of the lesson is not in lives.

[rxl]

I agree that there is certainly enough blame to go around.
The GGN RJ pilots and the SKY pilots need to take responsibility for their share.

[justwork]

The ones "flocking" to Georgian, SkyRegional or other venture are the victims, not the perpetrators. So I ask is it "fair and resonable" to expect them to solve the problem or those who came before.

Mapleflt

I'm glad a few people besides me can see this. Pilots looking for work, struggling to get a better job, doing what they can to increase their chances of accomplishing their goals, trying to pay the bills. These are the people that can't be tasked with fixing the industry.

RXL mentioned how pilots at Air Canada and WestJet have fought hard for the WAWCON they have now... Remind me again how Air Canada WAWCON has increased so greatly? Did rouge increase the WAWCON? How's the pension? I don't want to drift off topic here with a rant about Air Canada, so lets put that to bed. Oh but wait, what about Westjet and how amazing they set up Encore? Talk about a ball drop on WAWCON there too...

Pilots need a single collective association, college, union, whatever it ends up being. People aren't going to say no to a job that is better than their last just because someone else got paid more to do it once before. Rouge and Encore are the best examples of that at the mainline level. Encore pilots are considerably underpaid when compared to Jazz and Porter, and Rouge pilots are considerably underpaid compared to their mainline counterparts that were on those same machines just a short while ago.

In my opinion if you work at Air Canada or Westjet you have no right at all to call GGN or Sky pilots scabs, you're airline is doing the same thing just a little different. If you work at Jazz, ya, be pissed, but you can't blame the pilots leaving something worse for something better.

This is an industry problem, not pilot, not specific airline, it's industry. How do you fix an industry? College, association, union. That's the only way I see it.

[rxl]

Rouge was rammed down the throats of Air Canada pilots as part of the infamous TA1 thanks to back work legislation from our wonderful federal government.
The Air Canada pilot group were not willing participants in the initial formation of Rouge.

What are the GGN and SKY pilot groups doing to enhance pilot unity?

[justwork]

Rouge was rammed down the throats of Air Canada pilots as part of the infamous TA1 thanks to back work legislation from our wonderful federal government.
The Air Canada pilot group were not willing participants in the initial establishment of Rouge.

But pilots are still taking the job, so by the logic of some posters on this forum then these pilots are contributing to the "race to the bottom" in just the same was a GGN and Sky pilots.

Anyway, that was just a small part of my post.

[Koalemos]

Rouge was rammed down the throats of Air Canada pilots as part of the infamous TA1 thanks to back work legislation from our wonderful federal government.
The Air Canada pilot group were not willing participants in the initial formation of Rouge.

Ironic isn't it, since the GGN (1900) pilots are also unwilling participants. So, does that mean anyone going to mainline and getting Rouge should be chased around with pitchforks and shunned as well? Sounds like a lot of hypocrisy is getting tossed around to me.

As JW said, this is an industry problem. AC and WestJet are driving it in response to customer demand, and there is no shortage of businesses willing to make a buck off it. Pilots who are trying to survive are getting caught in the crossfire. Until there is an industry solution, the situation will continue.

I'm sure if the opportunity to go direct to mainline AC or WestJet were there for them, they would rather do that then work at GGN or Sky. Easy enough for the guys sitting on the top to tell those in the scrambling masses what a terrible disservice they are doing to the industry. Guess you guys will be paying their mortgages, feeding their kids and keeping clothes on their back while they go on strike to fix the mess of an industry that the previous generation created, eh. How about paying for their retirement while you're at it, cause unlike the old guard they have no cushy pension. People can sit tall and proud on their high horse all they want, while the majority have to deal with the reality before them.

[TGale]

The efforts and work of the collective agreements of the past are not in question however collective agreements only apply within. An overarching industry standard is required, it will either be detetmined by the "old guard" or the "young blood"; act or get acted upon, your choice.

The College of Professional Pilot of Canada with the support of both "old guard" and "young blood" needs to stand up and be heard. This is where our efforts need to be not arguing, backstabing and pointing fingrers amongst ourselves, thats what got us to this state.

Yes, I am a member #0209

Mapleflt

+1 from me. CPPC member# 0600