Flow delays YYC

JeppsOnFire · Post by **JeppsOnFire** » Sat May 03, 2014 2:37 pm

I understand ground delays. The part I don't understand is after waiting on the ground our obligatory hour, why are we still issued a crossing time inbound (sometimes they get us early and we can slow and avoid drilling holes, other times it's oops! you guys need to lose 8 minutes when we're 6 minutes from the fix)? My question is what was the point of the ground delay if we're just slowed and/or held anyways? The flight plan states our time enroute. I find it's more common when we have howling tailwinds - but our flight plan accounts for that and gives an appropriate time enroute.

On a related note - there is one terminal controller at YYC that is a big bag of awesome. STARs be damned - direct here, follow that guy there, speed restriction cancelled, cleared the visual. Throw in a timid VFR guy 'transiting the zone', he won't get pissy and doesn't miss a beat. Even a 'thanks for playing' or 'have a good one' before you sign off. He can balance a marble on a bowling ball. Maybe that's you cyeg66. If so, bless your heart.

PointyEngine · Post by **PointyEngine** » Sat May 03, 2014 2:50 pm

JeppsOnFire wrote: On a related note - there is one terminal controller at YYC that is a big bag of awesome. STARs be damned - direct here, follow that guy there, speed restriction cancelled, cleared the visual. Throw in a timid VFR guy 'transiting the zone', he won't get pissy and doesn't miss a beat. Even a 'thanks for playing' or 'have a good one' before you sign off. He can balance a marble on a bowling ball. Maybe that's you cyeg66. If so, bless your heart.

+1

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Sat May 03, 2014 2:52 pm

I've read the forum rules and I know you're supposed to be respectful and all that junk, but I like making statements that get people's blood boiling once in a while. Sometimes when you take things a little too personally you respond with your heart, not your head. That's what I'm here for.

I also make a great deal of helpful statements when I have something to add. The rest of the time I'm just having fun, sometimes at your expense. Don't worry man, I don't have a glass jaw. I can take it as well as dish it...

As for the flow control bullshit and not using 26 there are major problems with the system. the distance from 26 to 35 is too short to allow simultaneous intersecting runway operations. ATC can't give a land and hold short clearance. Once your wheels are on the ground they can accept that you are able to stop in time but the aircraft on final for 35 doesn't get their clearance to land until the one touching down on 26 has wheels on pavement and says "I am able to hold short". The whole system is a pain in the ass so unless they actually know your voice and that you are good for the short landing as was the case when I flew medevacs into there daily, they can't give 26 when 35 is in use. If shit comes appart on your landing and a big jet has to overshoot because of you, paper trails start flying and people get written up and it's on you, and they are more likely to just make you spin over toron until your turn comes up next time.

True North · Post by **True North** » Sat May 03, 2014 7:40 pm

Aeroplane17 wrote:Negative. Here in Canada Air Canada decides our STARS eg. YYZ. Controllers and every other pilot hates them but some nerdy engineer figured that's what is best for AC so everyone needs to confirm to these inefficient, pain in the ass STARS.

If you actually believe that you better take a deep breath, you're in way over your head.

cyeg66 · Post by **cyeg66** » Sat May 03, 2014 8:43 pm

True North wrote:
Aeroplane17 wrote:Negative. Here in Canada Air Canada decides our STARS eg. YYZ. Controllers and every other pilot hates them but some nerdy engineer figured that's what is best for AC so everyone needs to confirm to these inefficient, pain in the ass STARS.
If you actually believe that you better take a deep breath, you're in way over your head.

I don't think he's as far off the mark as you suggest... if I'm to believe what I've seen & heard....
Perhaps it's not a nerdy engineer but to think AC & WS don't have enormous, let me repeat, enormous clout in planning/designing/weighing in on STARs being developed in and out of their more important bases, then it may be you who's possibly in over your head.

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Sat May 03, 2014 9:22 pm

The STARS I referenced above are designed by the historical radar tracks of the A320's and 737's that arrive by the minute at our major centers. This is why CRJ's and E-jets have a hard time with them.

Your delusional to think YYZ/YYC look at the Georgian tracks when contemplating arrivals.

On a side note, how long does it take Navcanada to update an arrival? I've noticed the same notams for several months, deleting speeds here or there.

True North · Post by **True North** » Sat May 03, 2014 9:24 pm

cyeg66 wrote:
True North wrote:
Aeroplane17 wrote:Negative. Here in Canada Air Canada decides our STARS eg. YYZ. Controllers and every other pilot hates them but some nerdy engineer figured that's what is best for AC so everyone needs to confirm to these inefficient, pain in the ass STARS.
If you actually believe that you better take a deep breath, you're in way over your head.
I don't think he's as far off the mark as you suggest... if I'm to believe what I've seen & heard....
Perhaps it's not a nerdy engineer but to think AC & WS don't have enormous, let me repeat, enormous clout in planning/designing/weighing in on STARs being developed in and out of their more important bases, then it may be you who's possibly in over your head.

You obviously didn't read what Aeroplane17 said. He said "Air Canada decides our STARS", not Air Canada and WestJet. But you are right, AC and WJ do have influence over the STARs - that Nav Canada designs - as they should. They are the biggest users and pay the most nav fees so they should have influence. At the tier one, and some tier 2 airports the STARs are optimized for large transport jets since they are the primary users and that is what the tier 1 airports are for. The reality is airspace design is through a working group involving Nav Canada, Air Canada, WestJet and others. It is a collaborative effort but is ultimately the responsibility of Nav canada. To suggest the design is exclusive to one airline is laughable.

Chuck Finley · Post by **Chuck Finley** » Sun May 04, 2014 2:02 am

So we need to blame AC and WJ for the new retarded preffered routes between yeg and yyc? the new STARS in YEG are equally retarded.

I know it's not ATC's fault and they are very good at helping us cutting corners. Thanks guys!!

True North · Post by **True North** » Sun May 04, 2014 6:58 pm

. Finley wrote:So we need to blame AC and WJ for the new retarded preffered routes between yeg and yyc? the new STARS in YEG are equally retarded.

I know it's not ATC's fault and they are very good at helping us cutting corners. Thanks guys!!

No, you should blame Nav Canada. Before you do that though, I would suggest you educate yourself on the whys and wherefores of airspace design. It's not a random, dart thrown at a map process.

But you guys are really all over the map. My initial response was to the statement that Air Canada designed the STARs for YYZ, now you are talking about preferential routings. The airlines would have minimal input into preferential routings, that would be Nav Canada.

blue thunder · Post by **blue thunder** » Sun May 04, 2014 10:51 pm

JeppsOnFire wrote:On a related note - there is one terminal controller at YYC that is a big bag of awesome. STARs be damned - direct here, follow that guy there, speed restriction cancelled, cleared the visual. Throw in a timid VFR guy 'transiting the zone', he won't get pissy and doesn't miss a beat. Even a 'thanks for playing' or 'have a good one' before you sign off. He can balance a marble on a bowling ball. Maybe that's you cyeg66. If so, bless your heart.

I fly a private 407 Helicopter around YYC and this guy is awesome. Let you do anything if you can follow instructions. I was flying a couple days ago, and a Cessna came in from Springbank to look at the new runway at YYC. They were calling each other by first names. I took the opportunity to follow the Cessna over the runway. There should be more guys like this particular controller.

burly · Post by **burly** » Sun May 04, 2014 11:02 pm

The typical 1 post wonder starts the thread, and then is never heard from again. Classic.

Flow rate is all based on runway combinations and wx.

VMC arriving 35/29 and departing on either 35 or 29 = 36 rate
VMC arriving 35/29 and departing both 35 and 29 = 32 rate

Same rates above used for 17/11 vmc

IFR wx with 35/29 as actives provides a 24-28 rate depending on strength of the wind, RSC and braking action.

IFR wx with 17/11 provides 24-28 rate based on same above factors.

Heavy snow days when the CAA cant keep up with snow accumulation means single Rwy and a 20-24 rate.

VMC with 35 and 29 active means 26 is a no go. Decision out of the controllers hands, made from someone in Ottawa. We have tried to educate the local pilots on this issue. Not much else we can do.

"Get some American controllers up here"
"Work to rule controllers calling in sick on nice days"

Are we seriously still saying this BS??

Pilots complain about ATC on here all the time, but do you ever hear us complaining about some of the garbage pilots we deal with on a day to day basis? Maybe we should start a thread about that on here, and we can name some of the operators and crews and call them out?

Educate yourselves people. Ask for a tour of a tower or ACC. Learn the system. There is a lot of controllers in this building who hold ATPL, CPL and PPL that will gladly show you around.

There is a thread on the ATS forum for questions for YYC Tower and Terminal. Use it. Ask questions to figure out why things are the way they are.

Side note:

We had an airline crew come in to the Terminal a while ago for a tour. Right off the bat they were in our face about flow and how they hated the system etc. We handed them each a headset to listen and watch for an hour, talked them through the process and their prespective had changed by the end.

Rant over. Thanks for playing. (im not him by the way)

Burly
YC Terminal, CPL holder

securitas · Post by **securitas** » Mon May 05, 2014 1:22 am

arctic_slim wrote:
Post subject: Re: Flow delays YYC
I understand ground delays. The part I don't understand is after waiting on the ground our obligatory hour, why are we still issued a crossing time inbound (sometimes they get us early and we can slow and avoid drilling holes, other times it's oops! you guys need to lose 8 minutes when we're 6 minutes from the fix)? My question is what was the point of the ground delay if we're just slowed and/or held anyways? The flight plan states our time enroute. I find it's more common when we have howling tailwinds - but our flight plan accounts for that and gives an appropriate time enroute.

1. Airborne delays mean inventory at terminal fixes to assure all slots are filled.
2. Major customers prefer airborne holding under certain circumstances to better manage fleet
3. Apreq times have a +- 2 min window, and +-5 for a GDP, so if aircraft don't depart exactly on time, they don't arrive at fixes exactly on time
4. Deiced a/c rarely meet flow times accurately
5 Variable flight times as you mention
6. Missed approaches cause a missed slot
7. Medevac aircraft take priority over another aircraft already airborne
8. Arrival rate can change up and down rapidly depending on weather/runway config etc.
9. Flow programs give a departure time for a terminal traffic picture that often changes in the 0.5-3 hours it takes you to arrive
10. Enroute sequencing due to traffic conflicts related or unrelated to yyc
11. Time in terminal airspace due to traffic volume, ie: long final or short gate
12. Delays are shared equally among all affected users
13. At least a dozen other factors not including "work to rule", "screwing over pilots", "Canadians suck"

Measure with a micrometer, mark with a grease pencil, cut with an axe about sums it up.

ATPL Holder, YYC Flow

HeadingAltitudeSpeed · Tue May 06, 2014 9:51 am

burly wrote: Educate yourselves people. Ask for a tour of a tower or ACC. Learn the system. There is a lot of controllers in this building who hold ATPL, CPL and PPL that will gladly show you around.

Nail on the head Burly.

There are not many working pilots that also hold an ATC licence, but there is no shortage of controllers that hold a pilot's licence. Many of those have also flown commercially at some time as well, a few also manage to do both.

As much as it may be hard to hear, most of us have a much better understanding of your job and and the associated challenges than you do of ours.

SRV · Post by **SRV** » Tue May 06, 2014 12:18 pm

Aviation 101:YYC is a commuter airport and with a massive mix of scheduled and non-scheduled service. The oilsands traffic volume over the past 10-15 years has been steadily increasing. In order to handle the demand and remain a safe environment requires public safety measures ie, flow control. It's based on projected arrivals vs the need to keep departure movements positive.

What I would like to know is, will anything ever be done about the lousy signage and faded paint on the taxiways and runways, that is a major safety issue. Landing at night, particularly if the pavement is wet makes for exciting times looking for a taxiway exit even if you are a local. Maybe an SMS report is needed to get the feds to fork over some cash for paint.

leftoftrack · Post by **leftoftrack** » Tue May 06, 2014 10:10 pm

Is 17 L getting shut down when 17 R opens. Resurfacing centreline lighting ect?

amraam · Post by **amraam** » Wed May 07, 2014 12:23 am

New runway is 17L/35R. Previous poster stated that the planned closure this summer has been changed.

amraam

leftoftrack · Post by **leftoftrack** » Wed May 07, 2014 1:42 am

Is 35L getting shut down for resurfacing and center line lighting being added?