Air Canada Career Path

[FlyPorter]

Can anyone describe some typical career paths for a new hire at AC?

Thanks,

-Maus

[TGale]

Not any more...

[CanadianEh]

It all starts with a vow of poverty... kind of like being a monk

[FlyPorter]

What aircraft would a new hire operate on. Do all new pilots go to the Embraer or is it like at Jazz (they get whatever is open, Dash or CRJ)?

And how long is the wait to 777 FO and 777 CA?

[aycarumba]

What aircraft would a new hire operate on. Do all new pilots go to the Embraer or is it like at Jazz (they get whatever is open, Dash or CRJ)?

And how long is the wait to 777 FO and 777 CA?

I believe all new hires go to Rouge FO on the bus or 67.

Wait time to 777 depends on base (example yyz will be a shorter wait than yvr); probably 10 years + to get a 777 FO spot.

[FlyPorter]

Thanks

Can you give a wait time for the 777 at YYZ base?

Also, how are bases assigned?

-Maus

[TheStig]

Thanks

Can you give a wait time for the 777 at YYZ base?

Also, how are bases assigned?

-Maus

There are a couple YYZ 777 FO's that we're hired in 2005 at the beginning of the previous hiring wave (it's safe to say the present wave has ended). Other than those even relatively junior FO's on the 777 joined in the late 90's. The schedule and pay the aircraft provides has kept it senior, for example, every 777 FO in YYZ could be a A320 Captain.

[M. Essaie]

I ran into a very interesting example of an Air Canada career path a few weeks ago. The chap in question spent 14 years there, the last 4 years in the left seat of an A320. He quit early this year to move to the right seat of an Emirates 777. He said that AC is doomed and that Dubai will see many more of their pilots in short order. It's a strange world.

[55+]

I ran into a very interesting example of an Air Canada career path a few weeks ago. The chap in question spent 14 years there, the last 4 years in the left seat of an A320. He quit early this year to move to the right seat of an Emirates 777. He said that AC is doomed and that Dubai will see many more of their pilots in short order. It's a strange world.

Way back when I worked with TC, we had a couple of people who left to go with upstart WJ at that time to fly their B737 200. TC had reasonable salaries, initial 3-4 weeks annual leave, all stat holidays, DB pension along with a 8 - 4 day working and all weekends off. When you have a large number of people some move about because their current path hasn't worked the way they wanted. It's understandable and there's nothing new here. Incidently, one of the chaps is still with WJ and doing well for himself, no doubt. Other person left WJ few years back and took an overseas job with one of the major carriers.

[dukepoint]

Bit of thread drift about WJ, but I personally have a few friends there in their mid 40's who are literally burning themselves out doing overtime to bring in the big paycheques. They talk constantly now about retirement and possible mini-blocks....they've only been there for 12 years. They look like they're 55, but the money is great and they're all driving F-150 Lariat's. I guess they think the trade off is worth it. I'm 46, and have been at AC for 14 years and feel and look like I'm 40....(I think). Most importantly, I still love to fly. Sure, I'm not as well off, however if you can't swing it on $160G's and a pension, you'd better have a serious look at how you live. Mid-east carriers are great, but be prepared to walk away from your life in Canada for all intents and purposes. Don't be fooled......think of the logistical challanges of maintaining relationships 7000 miles away. Three friend have gone to "E", and after 3-5 years, not one is still in touch.

Back on topic. There are pilots hired in 2006 that are now 767 Captains at Rouge. Fo's hired a few months back that are right seat on the 76. Not the greatest pay, but the min monthly garantee is 77.5 hours, for a max 16 day month...(if the joint LCC/Air Canada commitee doesn't screw with it.) Most of the growth at AC will be Rouge. The wages are similar to WJ on the mini-bus..... close to Transat on the widebody. There will be ample opportunity to "burn yourself out" and earn extra cash, a la Westjet, by doing overtime as there is no reserve at Rouge. They count on "goodwill". There's a bit of an unwritten rule at AC right now....if you don't want to "play the game" and go the extra mile, don't go to Rouge from Mainline. There is a serious opportunity for a Mainliner with a grudge to be a real "fly in the soup" if they want to be.

If you want to go play in the sandbox, get 1000 hours right seat (2.5 years) on the 76 or bus and off you go. If you stay, which I recommend, count on 4 years as a Rouge FO, then off to the Mainline as a fairly senior 737 FO, or mid-range 777 RP. Possibly 6-7 years to a junior blockholder as a Skip on the 737/ FO 787. Expect retirements to accellerate in two years or so, as the fat dogs at the top with 35 years in realize that it's far smarter to be on the golf course if you want to live past 69. $$$$ do f&<#ed-up things to people. It's so easy to forget why we all got our licence in the first place.

Who knows what will happen with the Mainline. I forsee a Rouge/Mainline hybrid model in the coming years.....better wages at Rouge, and significantly more "Rouge-like" working conditions at the Mainline. CR wants Rouge to expand so he can eventually put the much higher paid FA's and others out to "pasture". The only thing in his way right now is pilot Scope. To overcome Scope, (yes, everything IS for sale).... he'll have to significantly improve wages at Rouge....consider the working conditions a given, they may change only slightly. When our competitors are running themselves to CARS limits, it's going to be a super hard sell for ACPA do do otherwise. Personally, I'd rather be here at AC/Rogue than anywhere else...no doubts. I just wish ACPA would grow a pair and realize we have been out-played by CR at every single turn........easily 30% of the combined gains of the last 45 years of fair negotiating have been handed over by a self-serving group of "Super-heros" intent on saving Air Canada pilots from themselves. I wish there was an ACPA "Super-hero" hall of fame. Quite disconcerting to see them slowly slip back into positions of power in the union and management.

Still, for now, it's easily the best gig in town.

DP.

[The Raven]

I ran into a very interesting example of an Air Canada career path a few weeks ago. The chap in question spent 14 years there, the last 4 years in the left seat of an A320. He quit early this year to move to the right seat of an Emirates 777. He said that AC is doomed and that Dubai will see many more of their pilots in short order. It's a strange world.

I've checked the Line Status Reports for the past 4 bids. I can't see any A320 Captains that have quit. Can you tell me where was based? I don't need his name, but can you give me his initials? Just curious. Something doesn't smell right.

[Martin Tamme]

I ran into a very interesting example of an Air Canada career path a few weeks ago. The chap in question spent 14 years there, the last 4 years in the left seat of an A320. He quit early this year to move to the right seat of an Emirates 777. He said that AC is doomed and that Dubai will see many more of their pilots in short order. It's a strange world.

I've checked the Line Status Reports for the past 4 bids. I can't see any A320 Captains that have quit. Can you tell me where was based? I don't need his name, but can you give me his initials? Just curious. Something doesn't smell right.

PD

[yycflyguy]

SB left as a result of the FOS for a lucrative contract.

[Martin Tamme]

SB left as a result of the FOS for a lucrative contract.

StewB went to China
Paul D went to Emirates (he resigned on Nov 29 2013)

[SgtStroka]

StewB went to China
Paul D went to Emirates (he resigned on Nov 29 2013)

Im guessing this isn't public knowledge, how unprofessional to be posting about other peoples business. You too yycflyguy.

What a shame.

[N00b]

if you can't swing it on $160G's and a pension, you'd better have a serious look at how you live.

Amen to this. Great post by the way Dukepoint, most intelligent writing I've seen on here in awhile.

[Lateralus]

if you can't swing it on $160G's and a pension, you'd better have a serious look at how you live.

Amen to this. Great post by the way Dukepoint, most intelligent writing I've seen on here in awhile.

Except his generalization of WJ pilots was ridiculous. But his "few friends" speak for all 1300 of us. Ive worked with his "friends" they are a miserable bunch, they work as much OT as possible cause they have some dragon at home who needs granite counter tops, hardwood floors, a Benz in the driveway etc. But this is the interwbez and people tend to generalize. Remember we all can't be "the pilots, pilots want to be" or something like that.

[dukepoint]

My "friends" are just that, true friends. I'm sad to see them burn themselves out in the pursuit of the mighty $. It does super weird things to people. It's kinda like Gold Fever....when the opportunity is there, it's nearly irresistable to some. They used to love their job; now they don't, and want out. It's not a shot at all Westjetters, as there are plenty who realize the importance of family time and the value of time off. My appologies if it sounded like a generalization.

DP.

[yycflyguy]

Im guessing this isn't public knowledge, how unprofessional to be posting about other peoples business. You too yycflyguy.

If you knew them personally you would know how outspoken they were. It was no secret.

[complexintentions]

Some ponderings on the "Air Canada Career Path" from one who didn't have the opportunity to take it, and yet, somehow survived.

You make some good points, DP. But the type of people you describe are at all companies - it's hardly a WestJet thing. I have former colleagues who think they've won the lottery because they made the left seat at Rouge. All they had to do was accept lower wages and longer hours. Yet, they think it's great. Nothing like getting people to eat a shit sandwich and smile while they do so! Some of them are overtime-whores like you describe. All of my jobs have had people hungry for more hours, more money. They're at AC too, and yes, Emirates as well.

The logistical challenges you mention of expat life are real. But again you generalize to the point of meaninglessness - relationships will last or they won't, distance is the least of the problems these days. When I lived in Vancouver, I would never see friends who lived in Port Coquitlam or Burnaby. The biggest obstacle was lack of time and will, not geography. After living in Dubai for more than a few years, I'm still very close to many back in Canada. This isn't the age of tall ships when living overseas meant saying goodbye forever and hoping for a letter every couple years - the internet and long-range travel have changed things somewhat. If your colleagues who left and went to Emirates have lost touch, you have to ask - how much effort have you put into maintaining the connection? I hate to tell ya, but most people build a new life with their family in their new home and community and of course the more superficial relationships fall away. It's just natural - if you can't deal with, then don't attempt to live outside of Canada, it's that simple. But I've realized that even giving up a lot of good things about life in Canada, there was an awful lot of bs that went along with it. I think sometimes I follow AvCanada just to remind me of that.

It's all about luck and timing. Emirates can be a brutal employer, and Dubai life can be a PITA. But I also enjoy the flying, the actual job. There's no way I would have ever made the position at AC that I have at EK. Not in 20 years, let alone the 3 1/2 that it took. That's just the reality. No way I would have ever had the variety of flying or world experiences. And yes, of course there's the money. But it was all just luck. And timing...would I join now? No way. The rosters aren't sustainable, the times to command are stretching ever longer and the bond has been increased. No thanks. But "playing in the sandbox" has worked out pretty good for more than a few.

I was fortunate. The concentrated, compressed timeline paid off. I saved/invested as much I could, so that I could one day not work if I so chose. You are a couple years older than me, and been at AC more than twice as long as I've been away. I hope to semi-retire by 2016. Then I'll be looking for some entry-level job in aviation in Canada or the US, or simply develop my (non-aviation) side business. I wouldn't want to be a B777 skipper at AC, working until I'm dead. Besides, been there, done that. It's funny how perspective changes as one ages - at one time I would have joined AC in a heartbeat and thought I'd died and gone to heaven. Now I would only work there because I enjoy flying and to make a little extra cash! That is a luxury I have worked hard to afford.

My point is, you can't look at YOUR career path at AC in isolation. The Air Canada of 14 years ago is not the AC of today, just like Emirates has changed much in my time here. Economic landscapes are shifting faster and faster and prizes will go to the adaptable. You certainly need a work-life balance, but there is also a certain amount of truth to the adage "make hay while the sun shines". At 46, you're only a medical away from losing your 160k/year. Hopefully not, of course. But the only dollars you can count on are the ones you already have. Money isn't everything but is IS helpful if you wish to own a home, put your kids through university, retire, silly things like that!

CI - still mistaken for a 30-something! (Mostly due to his immature behaviour)

[betster]

if you can't swing it on $160G's and a pension, you'd better have a serious look at how you live.

Amen to this. Great post by the way Dukepoint, most intelligent writing I've seen on here in awhile.

Except his generalization of WJ pilots was ridiculous. But his "few friends" speak for all 1300 of us. Ive worked with his "friends" they are a miserable bunch, they work as much OT as possible cause they have some dragon at home who needs granite counter tops, hardwood floors, a Benz in the driveway etc. But this is the interwbez and people tend to generalize. Remember we all can't be "the pilots, pilots want to be" or something like that.

Whoa... some of those "dragons" worked their asses off to support their husbands when they were making next to nothing. Its often the husbands who want to give their wives everything. It takes 2 to tango.

[yycflyguy]

Some ponderings on the "Air Canada Career Path" from one who didn't have the opportunity to take it, and yet, somehow survived.

You make some good points, DP. But the type of people you describe are at all companies - it's hardly a WestJet thing. I have former colleagues who think they've won the lottery because they made the left seat at Rouge. All they had to do was accept lower wages and longer hours. Yet, they think it's great. Nothing like getting people to eat a shit sandwich and smile while they do so! Some of them are overtime-whores like you describe. All of my jobs have had people hungry for more hours, more money. They're at AC too, and yes, Emirates as well.

The logistical challenges you mention of expat life are real. But again you generalize to the point of meaninglessness - relationships will last or they won't, distance is the least of the problems these days. When I lived in Vancouver, I would never see friends who lived in Port Coquitlam or Burnaby. The biggest obstacle was lack of time and will, not geography. After living in Dubai for more than a few years, I'm still very close to many back in Canada. This isn't the age of tall ships when living overseas meant saying goodbye forever and hoping for a letter every couple years - the internet and long-range travel have changed things somewhat. If your colleagues who left and went to Emirates have lost touch, you have to ask - how much effort have you put into maintaining the connection? I hate to tell ya, but most people build a new life with their family in their new home and community and of course the more superficial relationships fall away. It's just natural - if you can't deal with, then don't attempt to live outside of Canada, it's that simple. But I've realized that even giving up a lot of good things about life in Canada, there was an awful lot of bs that went along with it. I think sometimes I follow AvCanada just to remind me of that.

It's all about luck and timing. Emirates can be a brutal employer, and Dubai life can be a PITA. But I also enjoy the flying, the actual job. There's no way I would have ever made the position at AC that I have at EK. Not in 20 years, let alone the 3 1/2 that it took. That's just the reality. No way I would have ever had the variety of flying or world experiences. And yes, of course there's the money. But it was all just luck. And timing...would I join now? No way. The rosters aren't sustainable, the times to command are stretching ever longer and the bond has been increased. No thanks. But "playing in the sandbox" has worked out pretty good for more than a few.

I was fortunate. The concentrated, compressed timeline paid off. I saved/invested as much I could, so that I could one day not work if I so chose. You are a couple years older than me, and been at AC more than twice as long as I've been away. I hope to semi-retire by 2016. Then I'll be looking for some entry-level job in aviation in Canada or the US, or simply develop my (non-aviation) side business. I wouldn't want to be a B777 skipper at AC, working until I'm dead. Besides, been there, done that. It's funny how perspective changes as one ages - at one time I would have joined AC in a heartbeat and thought I'd died and gone to heaven. Now I would only work there because I enjoy flying and to make a little extra cash! That is a luxury I have worked hard to afford.

My point is, you can't look at YOUR career path at AC in isolation. The Air Canada of 14 years ago is not the AC of today, just like Emirates has changed much in my time here. Economic landscapes are shifting faster and faster and prizes will go to the adaptable. You certainly need a work-life balance, but there is also a certain amount of truth to the adage "make hay while the sun shines". At 46, you're only a medical away from losing your 160k/year. Hopefully not, of course. But the only dollars you can count on are the ones you already have. Money isn't everything but is IS helpful if you wish to own a home, put your kids through university, retire, silly things like that!

CI - still mistaken for a 30-something! (Mostly due to his immature behaviour)

Great post.

[N00b]

Some ponderings on the "Air Canada Career Path" from one who didn't have the opportunity to take it, and yet, somehow survived.

You make some good points, DP. But the type of people you describe are at all companies - it's hardly a WestJet thing. I have former colleagues who think they've won the lottery because they made the left seat at Rouge. All they had to do was accept lower wages and longer hours. Yet, they think it's great. Nothing like getting people to eat a shit sandwich and smile while they do so! Some of them are overtime-whores like you describe. All of my jobs have had people hungry for more hours, more money. They're at AC too, and yes, Emirates as well.

The logistical challenges you mention of expat life are real. But again you generalize to the point of meaninglessness - relationships will last or they won't, distance is the least of the problems these days. When I lived in Vancouver, I would never see friends who lived in Port Coquitlam or Burnaby. The biggest obstacle was lack of time and will, not geography. After living in Dubai for more than a few years, I'm still very close to many back in Canada. This isn't the age of tall ships when living overseas meant saying goodbye forever and hoping for a letter every couple years - the internet and long-range travel have changed things somewhat. If your colleagues who left and went to Emirates have lost touch, you have to ask - how much effort have you put into maintaining the connection? I hate to tell ya, but most people build a new life with their family in their new home and community and of course the more superficial relationships fall away. It's just natural - if you can't deal with, then don't attempt to live outside of Canada, it's that simple. But I've realized that even giving up a lot of good things about life in Canada, there was an awful lot of bs that went along with it. I think sometimes I follow AvCanada just to remind me of that.

It's all about luck and timing. Emirates can be a brutal employer, and Dubai life can be a PITA. But I also enjoy the flying, the actual job. There's no way I would have ever made the position at AC that I have at EK. Not in 20 years, let alone the 3 1/2 that it took. That's just the reality. No way I would have ever had the variety of flying or world experiences. And yes, of course there's the money. But it was all just luck. And timing...would I join now? No way. The rosters aren't sustainable, the times to command are stretching ever longer and the bond has been increased. No thanks. But "playing in the sandbox" has worked out pretty good for more than a few.

I was fortunate. The concentrated, compressed timeline paid off. I saved/invested as much I could, so that I could one day not work if I so chose. You are a couple years older than me, and been at AC more than twice as long as I've been away. I hope to semi-retire by 2016. Then I'll be looking for some entry-level job in aviation in Canada or the US, or simply develop my (non-aviation) side business. I wouldn't want to be a B777 skipper at AC, working until I'm dead. Besides, been there, done that. It's funny how perspective changes as one ages - at one time I would have joined AC in a heartbeat and thought I'd died and gone to heaven. Now I would only work there because I enjoy flying and to make a little extra cash! That is a luxury I have worked hard to afford.

My point is, you can't look at YOUR career path at AC in isolation. The Air Canada of 14 years ago is not the AC of today, just like Emirates has changed much in my time here. Economic landscapes are shifting faster and faster and prizes will go to the adaptable. You certainly need a work-life balance, but there is also a certain amount of truth to the adage "make hay while the sun shines". At 46, you're only a medical away from losing your 160k/year. Hopefully not, of course. But the only dollars you can count on are the ones you already have. Money isn't everything but is IS helpful if you wish to own a home, put your kids through university, retire, silly things like that!

CI - still mistaken for a 30-something! (Mostly due to his immature behaviour)

Great post.

Agreed!

[Dockjock]

No company is the same today as it was 14 years ago, 10 years ago, and certainly not 20 years ago, and won't be 10 years from now. This is not unique to airlines, aviation, flying, or any business at all. Using that as a criteria to evaluate how good a job is or what it's future prospects are is pointless. Do what you feel is best for you. The good old days were nowhere near as good as everyone thinks they remember them (my observation).

My personal opinion on whether to stay home and work for WJ or AC is that living in a country like Canada as a free man, you have the unique ability to leave the job at work. Overseas where your company pays for housing, schooling, club fees, transport, and all the extras, that's all great financially, but even when you're off work you're still very much a company man. Going to the beach club? Show your company ID. Going to the restaurant? Show company ID for discount. Athletic club, social club, travel, transport, housing...company ID. You're taken care of financially of that there is no doubt. But you never get to stop being an Emirates (or whatever) pilot.

[Old fella]

"The good old days were nowhere near as good as everyone thinks they remember them (my observation)..... "



From this 64 yr. old, those words are very true. The good old days (whatever time you perceive them to be) were good some of the time, but what wasn’t good was just that – not very good. And, there was plenty of not very good.
When the friendly chattering class old goats my age and older start to pontificated on “their good old days” I tell them they are usually full of shit and most of them are.

I am not the most popular amongst "pasture" boys, then again I refuse to hang out at Tim Hortons and the mall where most of them are.

Cheers
OF