May 1 startup day Air Georgian

[aviator242]

Well beyond the 90 day limits then.. In order for ggn to bid for the rj flying in December the LOU was already in place.

[rxl]

I was afraid of that.

[justwork]

I really have nothing to do with GGN and their RJ. For pure discussion I would love to play devils advocate here, hoping to open some eyes. I'm sick of Pilots throwing stones at each other. Its the industry not the pilots.

Jazz pilots are pissed right now, pissed that their flying is being eroded by the next lowest bidder, and realistically this is going to continue. Wait though, lets rewind just a few short years ago:
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... ok#p643161

Oh and Avcanada was in an uproar. Believe it or not back in 2010 when this was all going down there was in fact a thread about:
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... ilot+Union
and even talks going on about the College:
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... on#p535834

Just look at those poll results! %75 of pilots polled would in fact sign a petition, they'd be apart of this movement... But wait, it's going to cost $60 a year... Hmmmmm, maybe not so much.

Now what about Mainline Air Canada? Rouge pilots. A good friend of mine was a 767 FO at Air Canada pre Rouge. He was making well over $100K. 767's went to Rouge, next thing you know the FO is making over $100K LESS and how's that pension Rouge? That is a much larger percentage of reduced WAWCON than GGN or SKY compared to Jazz. Air Canada pilots didn't have to say yes to Rouge, they could have all quit. If Air Canada pilots had just all quit their jobs then Rouge wouldn't exist

Encore, they're paying Captains what like $55K? That's $25K less than Porter captains, who in turn make less than Jazz. The end game at Encore is a 737. That's it. The lemmings are lining up to work there. There were Westjet pilots spouting off about how raw that deal was, and how they never would have said yes if they had known. Well why didn't they quit Westjet? If every pilot at Westjet quit when Encore's WAWCON was announced then those captains wouldn't have set the lowest bar for Q400 drivers in the country

Now GGN is the flavor of the month. No one here is better than them unless you personally have done something to better this industry. If you work for Westjet and are crying about GGN then look in your weed filled back yard. If you're Air Canada, same thing. If you're Rouge, look in the mirror. If you're Encore, well same as Rouge. If you're Jazz, well look back at 2010 and your 757 operations. Who is left that's posting on this thread? All the 703 and 704 guys who are likely going into the hole each month because the pay is so $0.

So how about you gather all the empties in the garage, get your deposite back, then sign up here: http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/

Or do nothing but rant on avcanada about how much worse one operator is than another, when really every one is guilty.

[PositiveRate27]

Justwork, if you keep spouting out pure logic like that you run the risk of breaking the internet.

A big +1 to everything you just said.

PR

[Bajan Pilot]

I don't see how the 757's at Jazz come into this?

[Rogerdodger2]

Because a Dash-8 driver made the same as a 757 driver.....that's why.

[rxl]

Because a Dash-8 driver made the same as a 757 driver.....that's why.

That is correct.

Under the status pay system, the extra revenue generating potential of that 757 is shared by ALL pilots, supporting the wages from the BOTTOM of the list to the top.

There is no financial motivation to chase types.

When the 757 left the Jazz fleet, ALL pilots took a pay reduction not just those reduced from the Boeing.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I think that a unique fleet-wide pay-scale, base solely on date of hire is good.
When Air Transat operated the 737, the 757, the L-1011 and the A-330, everyone got paid the same. When we later switched the seasonal 737-400s for A-320s, it was still a unique pay-scale.
Even if a company has everything from a Beech 1900D to a B-777, this can work but it is in direct conflict with the pure seniority concept.

If Air Canada was to integrate all its feeders into the main line, from the B-1900D and up, the starting salary of someone first joining AC would have to be that of a B1900D first officer. That would be pretty low. So someone who has jet captain time in another airline and who quit would likely never apply to Air Canada just to end up as B1900D F/O with the pay that goes with it.

When a 15,000 hour jet captain loses his job he has three choices: become an expat, become a pilot in an outfit that has no union or join a new company at the bottom of the seniority list and pay scale.

That is perhaps one of the reasons Air Canada has feeders. It prevents the bottom of the totem pole from being too low, in order to still be able to attract faily experienced and qualified candidates...... If Air Canada had B1900Ds, the starting salary would be around $20K and the time to go up the seniority list would be pretty long before one could obtain the left seat of a passenger jet.

We pilots have union structures similar to those of blue collar auto workers. What other highly paid and skilled professionals in Canada act like blue collar workers like pilots do ? Do a highly paid accountant with 20 years experience start at the salary of one freshly out of university when they switch employers ? How about lawyers ? Engineers ? Computer programmers ? Ship officers ? Doctors ?

We will not allow an experienced Airline Canadian to bump the seniority queue in front of us, the Unions will scream bloody murder should that ever occur. But we allow Foreign Pilots to bump us, as though the fact that they were foreign and temporary made it ok. Air Transat, Canjet and Sunwing all have clauses in their CC that allow foreign captains to bump the seniority list, but not Canadian Captains........

Often, we are the victims of our own short sighted actions........

There are fixes to to this industry but those fixes may involve rethinking the whole structure........

[teacher]

For ease of math:

$100 million in wages divided evenly by all pilots regardless of aircraft type flown = $100 million total wages paid by the company

$100 million in wages divided unevenly by all pilots depending on size of aircraft flown = $100 million total wages paid by the company

See what I did there? Same wages paid.

Jazz paid $155/hour for 757 captains and about $90 for FOs spread across all types. EVERYBODY from the dash FO to the 757 captain got a raise. Imagine that, rewarding the entire pilot group for improvements in the company and not just the top few seniority numbers.

That's called unity and fairness. Something the majority of this profession needs to learn.

Other that the jazz reference I agree with your post justwork.

[teacher]

Because a Dash-8 driver made the same as a 757 driver.....that's why.

^ It's called status pay, please see explanation above ^

[rudder]

Teacher - you can tell them until you are blue in the face but there are those that choose to ignore the facts that are inconsistent with their argument. Jazz has highest regional aircraft pay rates in North America and paid industry standard (or more) in Canada on the narrowbody jet amongst the leisure airlines.The pay rate was in fact higher than all of the Canadian cargo operators of the 757. The only thing that Jazz ALPA did differently was reward 100% of the pilots for the addition of the 757 program rather than the handful that were awarded the actual 757 flying positions. It is not everybody's cup of tea but what is clear is that the employer did not get a freebie or a B-scale in exchange for the 757 program. That simple fact seems to elude many posters on this forum.

What Jazz ALPA has done for pilot pay in Canada is the antithesis of what is happening right now with GGN, SKY, and ENCORE. In 1988 the top Capt pay rate on a Dash 8 at an AC regional was $48/hr. This year it will be $120/hr (a pay rate that is also applicable on every Jazz fleet type including the 75 seat jets and Q400's). And while that fact is under extreme pressure, it did not happen because the employer or industry wanted it to. At some point, pilots had to stand up and say "no" to being the group that would subsidize low fares and high profits.

Make no mistake, the employer will always be seeking to pay less. It is up to the profession to stand together and say "no". What is happening with GGN, SKY, and ENCORE is just another attempt to achieve the agenda of squeezing the employees for the sake of greater profit and market share. So while these are laudable objectives and perhaps essential to a sustainable business, it only happens because the pilots let it happen by volunteering to work for substandard wages and benefits. The response must cross company lines and be effectively unanimous otherwise the jobs that we leave behind for our children will be worthless.

Time to look in the mirror and ask what we are each doing to stop the decline of the profession.

[teacher]

I can't help myself rudder, sorry.

[Koalemos]

What Jazz ALPA has done for pilot pay in Canada is the antithesis of what is happening right now with GGN, SKY, and ENCORE.

You forgot Air Canada mainline and Rouge, since they have been taking hits to WAWCON for years now and contributing to the downward spiral. When will people get it through their heads that this is an industry problem, and not just a couple of companies? I do feel for anyone who has worked at Jazz for the long haul, all the work improving pilot compensation is getting flushed down the drain. (Having said that, crucifying pilots at other companies is not the answer).

[dazednconfused]

A job is only worth what the market is willing to pay for it. Unfortunately our market (our profession) is on a downward trend and we are seeing times get worse than ever before. It is not individual pilots who are lowering the market value of a pilot, but the CEOs who are running all the plays causing arguments between pilot groups, allowing them to run the show in the background while we are out here calling others scabs. ...

The only chance we have to stop this "race" is to join together and not just look to place blame. It's pretty easy to be sitting in a good position blaming everyone else, but that accomplishes nothing. One union/college/etc is required, but unfortunately I do not see happening for many years.

That's definitely part of the problem. I think the biggest issue is demand air travel is highly elastic. The majority do not need to travel if it comes down to it. We are using more and more air travel because ticket prices are affordable, especially relative to where they were say 15-20 years ago. Flying is cheap today.

Ticket prices are low, costs are high, meaning margins are pretty tight. How do you improve margins? If you raise ticket prices, demand drops really fast and those planes and associated jobs are gone. Not to mention why would an airline raise ticket prices when they have stacks of pilot resumes who are willing to work at the already discounted wages? It's still better to fill the seats and maybe even more flights even if they are razor thin profits given they can find staff at the steadily decreasing wages.

I just don't see aviation as a high margin business where airlines can offer employees above average salaries. Then on the flip side, as I mentioned, demand for air travel is really sensitive to ticket prices. Demand for oil/gas/electricity is not. To top it off, it's not hard to find pilots versus say engineers/geophysicists, probably due to the fact it's generally easy to get a CPL/ME/IFR (cpl written exam is very easy... that's all it takes to be a commercial pilot??), not so much a four year quantitative degree, so where is the incentive to raise pilot wages if they are easily found?

As much as pilots need to stick together, I don't see where airlines (as long as they want to offer more flights and fill the seats) using low ticket prices are going to find the money to pay their staff more? The true fix is to raise ticket prices, meaning fewer flights and jobs, but pay those remaining staff members more money. Problem is, why would any airline do this when they can find staff at currently offered low wages? So, it is a supply/demand problem. Too much supply of pilots still willing to work for the ever decreasing low wages. Can you blame the airlines for trying to find the bottom? What will a college do when the college members are willing to take lower and lower wages and the airlines trying to boost stock prices have little more to offer? Look at the bigger picture. You want to work for a highly profitable company... there is something to be said for job security in todays economy. I'd like to be somewhere with an increasing share price, and overall company growth, versus a high relative industry wage but the company can't pay its bills. In the end, I go back to my margin comments. Airlines aren't flush with cash, and the demand for their product is very sensitive to pricing, but they want to stay viable and offer investors a decent positive return. It eventually trickles down to lower wages if they can find adequate staff - and right now pilots are still willing to accept them. Many years ago, someone told me, if you want to make money, find industries that make lots of money. Banking. Law. Medicine. Energy. What's one thing in common with them all? There is high demand, and people are willing to pay a lot for the service regardless of price - or don't even have a choice. You will pay your power bill no matter what, same goes for gasoline, or using a lawyer or dentist. The family of four doesn't need to go to Disney world this year if ticket prices go up, but you'll still get that tooth filled and fill up the car regardless. Airlines have very little pricing power. It won't get better either since consumers are tapped right out and interest rates can't go lower. Pilots entering the industry today need to realize it's evolving rapidly, and not for the better since the economy probably won't grow significantly from this point given already maxed out personal spending levels and wage stagnation.

[justwork]

I can't help myself rudder, sorry.

I get status pay, but could you just remind me what the actual rate was for a 757 captain compared to the actual rate of a RJ captain at Jazz was back when TCook was with Jazz.

[justwork]

I can't help myself rudder, sorry.

I get status pay, but could you just remind me what the actual rate was for a 757 captain compared to the actual rate of a RJ captain at Jazz was back when TCook was with Jazz.

I rescind that last post because I don't want this thread to drift. I fully understand that the 757 benefited all Jazz crews and not just the few who were operating the type.

I would like this thread to move towards a discussion about how pilots can fix the industry. No one is going to say no to a job that was better than their last one just to help a pilot group they have no relationship with, wont ever happen.

[GARRETT]

I was on the fence with this whole CPPA until I read this thread. (All 6 pages) I just signed up for a membership. Great discussion here but we need to stop talking about this and do something collectively before we are all making less than the cab drivers driving us to the airport. IMHO we need to regulate the number of commercial licenses issued annually. That would definitely control the supply/demand ratio. The fact I would not recommend that my kid get into aviation is F**king embarrassing.

[sstaurus]

I was on the fence with this whole CPPA until I read this thread. (All 6 pages) I just signed up for a membership. Great discussion here but we need to stop talking about this and do something collectively before we are all making less than the cab drivers driving us to the airport. IMHO we need to regulate the number of commercial licenses issued annually. That would definitely control the supply/demand ratio. The fact I would not recommend that my kid get into aviation is F**king embarrassing.

That's the real issue, restrict the supply (like other professionals) and then salaries have to go up. But then how do you stop the TFWs coming in when companies just say they can't find anyone, rather than pay real wages?

[CanadianEh]

That's the real issue, restrict the supply (like other professionals) and then salaries have to go up. But then how do you stop the TFWs coming in when companies just say they can't find anyone, rather than pay real wages?

You vote anything but Conservative in 2015!

[timel]

I was on the fence with this whole CPPA until I read this thread. (All 6 pages) I just signed up for a membership. Great discussion here but we need to stop talking about this and do something collectively before we are all making less than the cab drivers driving us to the airport. IMHO we need to regulate the number of commercial licenses issued annually. That would definitely control the supply/demand ratio. The fact I would not recommend that my kid get into aviation is F**king embarrassing.

That's the real issue, restrict the supply (like other professionals) and then salaries have to go up. But then how do you stop the TFWs coming in when companies just say they can't find anyone, rather than pay real wages?

Good luck with that, flight schools live on selling the dream of futur airline pilots. The won't want to restrict the pilot supply.

You have to set minimum standards for flying +12500lbs aircraft, have mandatory 1500 hrs for exemple instead of an IATRA which will eventually give access to a 260 hrs right side for a copilot on a crj if they need (USA did raise the bar to 1500 hrs), what transport did with lowering standards in allowing copi hours as equal to captain hours in order to get ATPL is an other mistake and it's not good for anyone willing to set standards higher. Make some crying guys happy, on long term it's lowering standards and going backward for everyone.

Recently heard an other story of a 703 operator, Grondair company proposing a guy to fly a 310 as captain and work as copilot in be10 for free on the right seat, good thing he refused the whole job, some pilots have values, and pilots I fly with have respect for the industry and work to improve it. Still pretty sure some millionaire kid will accept the job eventualy in order to raise enough hours to have his selfish ass in a dash8 .

That's why I got membership with college, it's the only way out, and I'm convincing professionals around me to get it, it frustrates me to hear some people say, we might wait and see... But got to keep working hard. What's good about internet is people gathering all kind of informations and sharing it so pilots can organize as a whole and act more as professionals.

TFW has to solved too and that's just one good reason too.

[HiLo]

I haven't been following GGN's on time performance with the new (cough) RJ's. How is it now?

[flyer 1492]

It hasn't been great, I know the yyz-mke run is running on average 90 minutes behind. You get what you pay for...

Flyer

[teacher]

The agents are getting really annoyed as their days are getting screwed up and other flights are starting to get affected. Everything runs on a tight schedule and GGN's delays have started affecting Jazz flights as agents, connections and ground crews are getting screwed up.

[cdnpilot77]

GGN's delays have started affecting Jazz flights as agents, connections and ground crews are getting screwed up.

Are you suggesting a conspiracy to affect Jazz OTP for near future negotiations?

[rxl]

Had this very issue with a flight the other night. Air Canada sales staff scheduled to work our flight were held up with a delayed GGN flight to YYG. The boarding process for our flight was subsequently delayed.

It's one thing to lose the work to GGN, but to then have the integrity of our schedule suffer because they seem to be ill prepared for the extra work is a real slap in the face.

How is it that Jazz is too expensive to operate the RJ YYZ to YYG, MKE, RDU and IND, but apparently we are cost effective to operate the RJ YYZ-DTW, a route that up until recently has always been serviced under the Air Canada banner by 19 or 37 seat turbo props?