King Air type ratings.

[AllClutch]

What would be the process to convert a B200 type rating into a King air 350 type rating?

[goingmach_1]

What would be the process to convert a B200 type rating into a King air 350 type rating?

A full course type rating. Big difference between these two. Got both type ratings.

[cdnpilot77]

Training and a check ride not just a simple differences conversion.

[x-wind]

I was looking into a similar question just last night. This AC was the closest thing to your question. Couldn't find anything regarding 704 ops.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 8-1173.htm

[co-joe]

I don't even think you can group them. You can group 100/ 200, and 350/ 1900 I think.

Fuel system 200 to 350 is identical, so is pressurization as far as inner workings,engines behave identically but have different numbers, props are slightly different, electrical is the big one, it is almost completely different.

Really it should just require conversion training unless its the Collins Pro Line pannel, then a little more learning could be in order but no joy...

[turbo-prop]

B200 and 350 can be grouped. The only real difference between them is the 200 has a dual fed bus system and the 350 has a triple fed bus system. Otherwise the gear, flaps, avionics, even wing span on new B250 are the same.

[seriousflyer]

They can't be grouped...not matter what the standards are 703 or 704.
Although very similar aircraft, the MTOW is above 12,500lbs on the KA350. Which is ONE of the reasons you need different training and flight test. I hold both ratings and I also run the ground training programs for each type. In the U.S., the 350 used to be grouped with the BE02 (Beech 1900) since they are both rated for more than 12,500LBS MTOW but aren't 705, and/or more than 19 passengers. They have changed this now and you need separate training for the 350 and 1900.

If you are KA200 (BE20) type rated, and want a 350 job, you would need to do a complete groundschool and flight training program and flight tested by an examiner that has a 350 type rating in his/her logbook (doesn't need to be current). You can do this thought onwing training or through a LEVEL D (full motion) simulator. Again Level D sim is required as it is an aircraft with higher than 12,500lbs MTOW.

[flyinhigh]

They can't be grouped...not matter what the standards are 703 or 704.
Although very similar aircraft, the MTOW is above 12,500lbs on the KA350. Which is ONE of the reasons you need different training and flight test. I hold both ratings and I also run the training programs for each type. In the U.S. the 350 used to be grouped with the BE02 (Beech 1900) since they are both are rated for more than 12,500LBS MTOW but aren't 705, or more than 19 passengers. They have changed this now and you need separate training for the 350 and 1900.

You may want to read under CASS 724.108 Schedule III which states

Schedule III - Authorized Grouping for PPC Purposes

Aircraft Manufacturer Type
Aero Commander/IAI 1121, 1123 and 1124 Jet Commander and Westwind Models
Beechcraft 99 , 100 and A100 Models
Beechcraft 100, A100, 200 and B200 Models
Beechcraft 200, B200, 300, 350 and 1900C Models
British Aerospace Jetstream 3100 and 3200 Series
British Aerospace HS 125 - All Viper Engine Driven
British Aerospace HS 125 - All Retrofit to FAN Engines
British Aerospace HS 125 - 700 and 800 Series
Cessna 500, 501, 550 and 551 Models
Cessna 550, 551 and 560 Models
Cessna 650 All Models
Dassault Falcon 50 and Falcon 900
Lear 23, 24 and 25 Models
Lear 35, 36 and 55 Models
Lockheed Jetstar I, II and 731 Models
Saberliner 40, 60 and 75 Models
Swearingen/Fairchild SA226AT (Merlin IV and IVA), SA226TC (Metro and Metro II)
Swearingen/Fairchild SA227AT (Merlin IVC), SA227AC (Metro III),
Metro 227DC, Metro 227CC
Swearingen/Fairchild SA226T, SA226TC and SA226AT
Swearingen/Fairchild All long body SA226 and SA227

Or under CASS 723.88 Schedule II which states

Schedule II - Grouping for PPC Purposes
Aeroplanes Having a MCTOW over 7000 lbs
Grouping is authorized for the following aeroplane types and models:
Aero Commander - 600 series turbine
Beech - 90 (A, B, C, E) 99, 100, A100
Beech - 100, A100, 200, B200
Beech - 200, B200, 300, F90
Piper Cheyenne - I, II, III
Piper Cheyenne - IV
Swearingen/Fairchild - All short-body SA226, SA227
Swearingen/Fairchild - All long-body SA226, SA227.
Swearingen/Fairchild - SA226T, SA226TC and SA226AT]

You can now rewrite you training program

Now I do agree under 703 you cannot group the 350 with the 200, however under 704 you can, and we have.

[turbo-prop]

Serious flyer you are misunderstanding grouping. Yes you are correct that you do have to do a ride on both aircraft then after you have done that then you can do pcc training on one and do a ppc on the other one. Then the following year you switch.

[seriousflyer]

Forgive me, I am new to training programs. Thanks for posting specific info flyinhigh.
What is that aviation definition of Grouping? Does it have to do with IFR currency?

Flyinhigh, if a pilot is grouped at your company, how does his/her initial and recurrent training work?

[flyinhigh]

Flyinhigh, if a pilot is grouped at your company, how does his/her initial and recurrent training work?

Like a nightmare, haha

As turbo prop stated just above your last post.

Yes you are correct that you do have to do a ride on both aircraft then after you have done that then you can do pcc training on one and do a ppc on the other one. Then the following year you switch.

Oh and welcome to the crappy world of training programs, just when you think you got something nailed, there is always some AC, etc showing/saying something different.

It's a pain in the Butt!!

[ScudRunner]

I was grouped Lear 35 and Lear 55, keep in mind its what TC approves in your company training manual so this could vary from operator to operator. Basically you complete a type rating, say LR35 and then you complete a differences course nothing more than a few days of additional classroom and another full ride on the 55. At that particular company most guys would start on one type and then the following year the other type was added.

I had to do a ride every year but alternating type, essentially while down at sim we would do ground school for the one we intended to do a ride on lets say LR55 and a day of differences LR35. Additionally we would do a loft sim session on the alternate type in this example the LR35 and then conduct a ride on the LR55.

Clear as mud?

[co-joe]

Yeah basically grouping is no help for initial training but saves time and money for recurrent. I could see grouping a 20 and 3B as long as it's not the one with the Proline panel. That would be a real tough one to combine IMHO.

[seriousflyer]

Wow that is confusing, but I think I'm catching on. Since I'm due for BE20 and BE30 recurrent training in the same month, I can essentially do a BE30 G/S and recurrent ride, and simply do a "difference G/S" for the BE20 type rating and that would renew both the BE20 and BE30 rating. correct?

So essentially it makes sense to train a pilot on both, if required, and then recurrent training is practically 2 type rating renewed for the price of one....Eureka?

[turbo-prop]

You would do the ground schools for both airplanes do a ride a ride on the BE30 and do pcc training on the 200

[seriousflyer]

Ok, so PPC training on BE30 and PCC training on BE20.

Is it a requirement to do a PPC on each type every two years? Based on the above poster (LR35/55) he alternated types for the PPC, is this done in order to get more practice and familiarity or is it a standard?

[cdnpilot77]

Ok, so PPC training on BE30 and PCC training on BE20.

Is it a requirement to do a PPC on each type every two years? Based on the above poster (LR35/55) he alternated types for the PPC, is this done in order to get more practice and familiarity or is it a standard?

Type ratings on the Lear 35/55 have 2yr validity which is why they can be alternated yearly. A king air 200 is a 703 machine and therefore a PCC or PPC must be done yearly. We are dealing with this right now as we bring a 200 into our once exclusively 704 operations. We have guys that alternate ppc rides yearly with the c500 and c560 also.

[ScudRunner]

Ok, so PPC training on BE30 and PCC training on BE20.

Is it a requirement to do a PPC on each type every two years? Based on the above poster (LR35/55) he alternated types for the PPC, is this done in order to get more practice and familiarity or is it a standard?

Type ratings on the Lear 35/55 have 2yr validity which is why they can be alternated yearly. A king air 200 is a 703 machine and therefore a PCC or PPC must be done yearly. We are dealing with this right now as we bring a 200 into our once exclusively 704 operations. We have guys that alternate ppc rides yearly with the c500 and c560 also.

Forgot about that with the 703 requiring it yearly so you might be SOL unless your operation as Cdnpilot77 is doing took the B200 into the 704 ops. I recall someone saying we tried to get TC approval for a King Air 350 and B1900D to be grouped but since their was some deal with the 350 ability to be operated 703 and 704 there was many sleepless days at TC monday to friday 9-4ish so in the end nothing happened. IMHO the B350 (not proline) and the 1900D would make sense almost identical cockpits and don't quote me but I would imagine very similar systems.

[amclean]

Type ratings on the Lear 35/55 have 2yr validity which is why they can be alternated yearly. A king air 200 is a 703 machine and therefore a PCC or PPC must be done yearly. We are dealing with this right now as we bring a 200 into our once exclusively 704 operations. We have guys that alternate ppc rides yearly with the c500 and c560 also.

While the 200 can be operated under 703, since you already have a 704 OC wouldn't it make sense to just operate it under 704? Because it is a small airplane, a lot of the restrictions applied to large airplanes under 704 don't apply, and not having to deal with two different crew sched rules may make things easier for your ops manager. Of course you may just not like him, and want to make his life a living hell!

[seriousflyer]

We operate our King airs 704 and 703. 703 OC is to land and take off from small strips where balanced field length isn't available. 704 OC to carry more than 9 pax, but aren't able to land on small strips.

He might be brining on a B200 in order to get into some smaller communities which would require 703 OC. If a pilot if staying current on the citations, 704, and B200, 703, and they are not grouped, the pilot would have to annual PPCs. Better find a guy/gal ready study....

[amclean]

No need for a balanced field in a 200 with 9 pax (unlikely even that many in a corporate machine) under 704:

Take-off Weight Limitations

(1) Relief from Accelerate-stop Distance Requirements

The standards for conducting a take-off in an aeroplane that is propeller-driven without demonstrating that Accelerate-Stop Distance Required does not exceed Accelerate-Stop Distance Available are:
(amended 2006/06/30; previous version)

(a) the air operator shall comply with all take-off weight limitations set out in the aircraft flight manual; and

(b) the air operator meets one or more of the following conditions:

(i) prevents more than 9 passenger seats from being occupied,

(ii) uses an aeroplane with a MCTOW of 5 700 kg (12,566 lb) or less and is being operated on demand, or
(amended 2006/06/30; previous version)

(iii) until December 20, 2010, uses an aeroplane with a MCTOW of 5 700 kg (12,566 lb) or less.
(amended 2006/06/30; previous version)

[flyinhigh]

Amclean is correct,

Provided the Be-20 is operated under the definition of large turboprop (12,566 lbs or less, greater is large) in 704, you still get relief from balanced field length.

It starts to get tricky if you are running them at a higher gross weight (above 12,566 lbs) with more than 9 Pax. For the King Air 200 this is next to impossible unless you want to spend a but load of money, at which point you may as well buy a 350.

[flyinthebug]

Ok, so PPC training on BE30 and PCC training on BE20.

Is it a requirement to do a PPC on each type every two years? Based on the above poster (LR35/55) he alternated types for the PPC, is this done in order to get more practice and familiarity or is it a standard?

Type ratings on the Lear 35/55 have 2yr validity which is why they can be alternated yearly. A king air 200 is a 703 machine and therefore a PCC or PPC must be done yearly. We are dealing with this right now as we bring a 200 into our once exclusively 704 operations. We have guys that alternate ppc rides yearly with the c500 and c560 also.

Same scenario for me when I started out. We ran PA31s and C414s for medevac. We did our intial ride on one or the other machine and a PCC on the 2nd. Then we just alternated machines each year for our rides (414 one year, PA31 the next etc). Group approvals are TC approved and yes, on a "per operation" basis. I have seen some companies get approved for grouping and others not. It depends on the experience level of the pilots, CP, and his/her ability to manage this program. Much like one AMO will get a 4000 hour TBO on a PT6 while the operator next door with a DOM with 30+ years experience and all his tickets (M1, M2, S rating etc with previous experience on type) and they get a 6000 TBO on the same engine. TC looks at the operation and key personnel before they approve groupings. The CARS simply says it CAN be done, but your local TC inspector is the one who decides if your company is ok to approve for grouping.

For the record, the CASS does allow for grouping of the 200&350 as flyinhigh pointed out. Its up to each individual inspector if you get approved for the grouping or not.

Fly safe all.

[seriousflyer]

Thanks for your input, I had no idea that the experience level of management played such a role in particular standards that TC allows an airline to operate.

[co-joe]

I can't remember the numbers anymore but Borek had rediculous TBO times on their PT6's. Basically unlimited but tonnes of little things had to be complied with. I think they have/ had engines with over 8000 hours on parts of them. Best on condition program in Canada, but based on the best experience, and with so many of them in the fleet.

You'd really have to prove you know your stuff to get a grouping program in place with a 200 and a 350 I bet. Youd probably be best to do full initial training and rides on them and work on the program and then by the time recurrent rides come around you might have the program in place. You'll also want those SOP's and QRH's streamlined to accommodate the subtle differences. Especially if you have an early model 200 and for example try to do cross gen starts since the 350 (and late 200's) generator control unit makes it possible. That type of thing...