Why?

[Rumors]

https://career4.successfactors.com/care ... r%2buXc%3d

[Batman]

1500 hrs total time for a Dash skip. I guess this is all we can get with the crap wage. This is a hell of a lot more demanding then our 737 jobs. Therefore we're basically saying that all pilots aren't worth shit regardless of their experience. Very sad. I know there will be replies to this post stating that this is a minimum requirement and there will never be a captain hired with this experience. Yeah right, theres a reason why its there. I think we're now officially all screwed.

[FICU]

I hope 1500 is a misprint!

[flyer 1492]

So 68.00 times 80 hours times 12 works out to be 65,280.00 per year, it's a little bit better than 57,120. Good luck living (with a family) on that in YYC or YYZ. Encore must be having a lot of trouble finding qualified applicants.

Flyer

[razorblade]

Surely no one with less than 3000-4000 will get hired as DEC!

[sstaurus]

Those are just the same default requirements as for FO. No one will get DEC with those times. Just as AC has had only an ATPL listed as all you need to send a resume for years, doesn't mean they'll look at you.

[dignifly]

Why don't they just match porter's pay scale if they want some decent experienced people? That pay scale isn't the greatest but closer to what is fair. If porter can afford it then I think a company with real jets and 1.4 bil in cash can at least do the same...

[ahramin]

They obviously think that they know what they're doing. 1.4 billion in cash suggests that they are correct.

[scopiton]

Why don't they just match porter's pay scale if they want some decent experienced people? That pay scale isn't the greatest but closer to what is fair. If porter can afford it then I think a company with real jets and 1.4 bil in cash can at least do the same...

Thing is, you don't wanna spend this cash.

[rudder]

I hope that every Navajo pilot in Canada applies........and nobody else.

Time to give WJ/Encore a wake up call about supply and demand. If you want to pay peanuts, then you will attract the experience level you deserve. If pilots can show some restraint and self discipline and NOT APPLY, the offer will have to improve. Does anybody believe that WJ will just let Q400 deliveries sit on the ramp idle? Show a little patience and teach WJ/Encore a lesson about respect being a two way street.

[HiLo]

If pilots can show some restraint and self discipline and NOT APPLY, the offer will have to improve.

I guess Blondie had it right....dreamin' is free.

[rudder]

If pilots can show some restraint and self discipline and NOT APPLY, the offer will have to improve.

I guess Blondie had it right....dreamin' is free.

Actually, you would be surprised.

So far the target audience for the Q400 DEC position (Jazz, Porter, SKY) seem to be avoiding Encore. Expect that trend to continue unless and until the Encore offer is significantly improved.

A previous poster had it right: Porter pay scale at a minimum and clarity about access to the WJ pilot seniority list.

This could have also been partially resolved by permitting WJ FO's to bid Q400 Capt (at a respectable pay rate). But that too is water under the bridge.

Congrats WJ, you managed to screw this up just as bad as the red team has. And fixing it after the fact will likely cost more than getting it right from the get go. You would have thought that someone who came from the AS/QX system would have known better. Guess not.

Let's see if there is a learning curve here.

[Mr. North]

Last time I checked Air Canada had the same requirements. Just sayin..

I had a phone interview with Encore a few months back where I politely turned them down once they outlined the conditions. I made it clear why too. Move to Calgary at my own expense and work twice as much for less than half my current pay. That 2 year wait for mainline seniority didn't jive with me either. I give them credit though, HR lady was real nice and even put me in touch with other WJ pilots who tried to sell me on working there (and they did a pretty good job). It was tough to turn it down but I just couldn't escape the hard math.

Since then I've known a few FO's to head over there. Don't know how they stomach the salary but they all lived out west already. Most of them had around 3k TT with very little command. It will be interesting to see what happens in a year or so when all the senior captains start moving over to mainline. Will Encore have enough experience in it's roster to maintain it's expansion? Will they start accepting more DEC? Will wages go up or will they lower the requirements?

Best of luck to the guys and girls working there, just ain't for me right now.

[loopa]

Last time I checked Air Canada had the same requirements. Just sayin..

That is true, only that the above job posting is for Captain's. There's a separate job posting for F/O's. It's probably a mistake. I can't see how they would ask for 1500 hours for a Q400 skipper.

[DaveP]

Hi Guys,
The reason for the direct entry posting is because the upgrades are now faster than planned. Basically upgrade assessments are taking place in initial training and many guys and gals simply aren’t ready.

As part of the risk assessment that was done - an internal matrix is now in place before you can upgrade:

Total Time / DHC-8-400 or similar Transport Category Aircraft *
4500 / 500
4000 / 500
3500 / 750
3000 / 1000
2500 / 1250
2000 / 1500

To answer the questions, the way I understand it - basically you need 4500 hrs and 500 pic hrs and 500 hrs on (similar 705 time -saab/dhc8 1/3/4/ATR42 etc...) FOR THE DIRECT ENTRY
As general interest and to answer some; there is more clarity coming on the flow/date of hire and some other nice improvements. Standby for that - details will be out very soon! I’ve been away the last few days so I’ll pass along the latest when I get the info.

Take care,
Dave

[JoeyBarton]

Wouldn't it be 4500 / 500 SIC hours, not necessary PIC?

Looking at the bottom end of the matrix, not sure how a 2000TT could have 1500h PIC on a 705 machine...Or I probably got it all wrong

[DaveP]

Hi,
You are correct. Those numbers on the chart reflect SIC and are for internal pilots that are now here on property for Westjet Encore.
Cheers

[7thirtyseven]

DaveP, is it true the WJPA finally has pulled its head out of its ass? whats going on over there? Is someone ACTUALLY listening?

[DaveP]

Hi,
The new guard took over a few weeks ago. Improving the global package was a priority and I believe all worked hard on these initiatives like one list and salary review. An update will be out soon.
Cheers

[rudder]

As general interest and to answer some; there is more clarity coming on the flow/date of hire and some other nice improvements. Standby for that - details will be out very soon!

DaveP,

Please tell everybody that WJ/Encore have figured out that to attract experienced pilots/DEC candidates it will be necessary to offer compensation commensurate with experience. Translated: that means more money!!

Offer real money. Freeze the DEC's on the Q400 for 2-3 years but give them a number on the WJ master seniority list and give them full tenure credit on the WJ pay grid. You would also be doing yourself a favour to let your 737 FO's bid to the Q400 Capt positions because at the end of the day you will never get enough DEC current Q400 Capt to fill the delivery schedule and you already have a problem with upgradability of existing Q400 FO's. Why would you deny your WJ 737 FO's the chance for an early left seat? Is it because you just don't want to pay a reasonable rate of pay on the Q400?

Flow is great but working for cheap for a WJ seniority number is just pay-for-training dressed up as a different animal. I thought that WJ was classier than that.

And all of this is transpiring while there is a union movement ongoing. Normally you only get one chance to get it right. This is a second chance or perhaps a union can figure it out for you?

[DaveP]

Hi,
Yes, I agree with all and they are looking at it from a global package.
I don't think money is the only solution because even Jazz is having a tough time. (Based on the number of college students they just took to fill their class)
With only 480ish atpl licenses issued last year it becomes more of a competition in my opinion.

It's getting better and better for them.

Dave

[JoeyBarton]

Dave,

With the current state of things at WEN, I'm guessing a 2500 ish TT ATPL with only 500 MPIC turbine on a 703 machine won't get a real chance of getting a call as of now?

[rudder]

Dave,

With all due respect, Jazz isn't hiring DEC.

Instead of looking at Encore as a cost saving resource and trying to mimic the WJ startup model circa 1996, you would have been wiser to look at Encore as simply an extension of WJ and promoting employee interchangeability.

And you have had the benefit of watching the epic mismanagement of this same issue across the street so there is no excuse for repeating the errors that have already been made.

Therefore, WJ/Encore are hiring 4 potential candidates:

- Q400 DEC

- Q400 FO upgradable in short order to Q400 Capt

- Q400 FO a long way from upgradable (i.e. college kid)

- B737 FO

It does not take a genius to figure out that a lowball approach to pay is not going to be a successful model. You tried it - how did it work so far?

Simply put - you should have used the B737 FO pay scale to set the Q400 Capt scale. With the exception of year 1 and 2, it is remarkably similar to what Porter/Jazz pay their Capt (up to year 10). You also should have made the opportunity available for your 737 FO's to bid an early left seat at Encore using that same pay grid. Some would have pursued the opportunity, some not. Don't you honestly believe that every pilot aspires to command? How long is the wait time at WJ now? 10 years? More?

I sincerely hope that you get it right this time. There is already more than enough dysfunction manifest in this profession and in this industry. It would be extremely disappointing to see that malaise become the norm in the WJ camp as well. Perhaps that is why some think that it is time to change the pilot representational structure at WJ.

Good luck.

[7thirtyseven]

Thx DaveP

[DaveP]

Thanks for all the input guys! It's all good stuff. Much have which has and is being discussed.
Lots going on - always will be! Westjet Encore will be pretty aggressive out east in 2015.
I'm just glad I have a few minutes for the forum while my winter tires get swapped!
Take care!
Dave