Contrail Requirements

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Darkhorse
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by Darkhorse »

ya
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Krimson
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by Krimson »

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Last edited by Krimson on Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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single_swine_herder
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by single_swine_herder »

I'm curious what makes the Contrails requirements for a King Air 200 to be a "ridiculous system" in your opinion?

The clients served by Contrails ... (or any other aviation consultant) have a right to set whatever standards they wish to establish sufficient confidence in the people that are flying their staff around. Bearing in mind that the "value" of a fatality of a staff member sits at roughly 5 million dollars per event, what's wildly excessive about a business to be looking for someone with a minimum experience level of 2,500 TT, 1,000 PIC, 750 ME TT, and 650 ME TT? To get that low, all they need is to have attended a proper sim training program. For a 200 with Proline 21 avionics, that's sure not excessive.

Does it make it tough on somebody joining an organization as an FO with minimal experience, yep ... likely it does.

This whole concept of a client specifying a minimum experience level sure isn't anything new ... when I worked in Ontario decades ago, Bell Telephone had some pretty high experience requirements to fly their technicians and engineers around the province. Lots of our staff didn't meet the requirements, some did. Same thing with the Ont Govt's "Lands and Forests" department that would be flown around in a 185 or 206 doing game counts. When the Health Dept was specifying what experience crew members must have to obtain certification to fly medevacs, they were pretty high too.

Or is this case where anyone expecting a pilot to have anything more than a licence and a PPC, and a charter company have an AOC hanging on the wall is unrealistically shooting for the moon?
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Krimson
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by Krimson »

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Last edited by Krimson on Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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single_swine_herder
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by single_swine_herder »

Thanks Krimson ...

Many other things go on behind the scenes in addition to specifying minimum pilot hours before a consultant advises a client that most likely there is a manageable level of reduced risk of their staff flying with "Al's Aviation," and with Krimson as one of the accepted pilots.

For example, there will generally be a company audit to see how well they maintain records, interviews with key personnel, and get a feeling for their general corporate culture. There will also be an on-going process of monitoring CADORS, do a follow up service with operators based on observations passed by the passengers about things they think may have not gone well on a flight, or would like some explanations for questions which may not have been answered by the pilot at the time because the answer has the aroma of BS or general inconsistency.

The simple fact is that responsible corporations look closely into the activities of their supporting companies at the very least because of being subjected to vicarious liability due to lack of due diligence, or by a genuine concern for the welfare, safety, and comfort of their employees on their way to and from work. You may not be aware of a mining accident in Nova Scotia now called "The Westray Mine Disaster." The hearings, court cases, and sentences which were levied against supervisory staff following the deaths of several their employees after having been informed of safety problems changed the conduct of executives who have any education in the ramifications associated with taking on those positions. Some are still many people blissfully unaware that by accepting the position of Chief Pilot, Ops Mgr, or Accountable Executive and not taking action to run a safe operation in the face of known issues has any "big picture" downside.

If that process of performing due diligence, conducting Risk Analysis and mitigation limits the advancement of someone from the FO position to Captain, its of no concern to those clients, and in fact may be viewed as a good thing.

So back to your original observation, are the minimums arbitrary? Perhaps, but those minimums are based on the cumulative experience of a group of aviation personnel with many decades of experience in the business that have seen and heard a lot.
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ehbuddy
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by ehbuddy »

I suppose Contrails have already networked all of the Travel Agencies in Alberta setting a standard that all of the Tier 1's have to adhere to. They just could not book passengers unless the Standard at WJ was up to its standards.
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Beaver2509
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by Beaver2509 »

Oil companies will gladly book their employees a ticket on Air Canada, with the flight operated by Air Georgian/Jazz, with crew members on board who do not meet the contrail standard for experience. I'm assuming they either don't know, or feel that because it's "Air Canada" the crews must be more experienced.
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MeAndMrPenguin
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by MeAndMrPenguin »

That is totally true.

AC had guys with a year of jet experience were upgrading in 2007.

His approach is flawed. When the majors started hiring heavily in 2003 pilots were leaving quickly. Companies were having a hard time getting Captains to meet his numbers. In fact, I watched horrified as they hired people that had bounced around a lot and likely rejected by numerius airline panels and psych tests get these seats. A few did some very dangerous things and were fired. Good job Brian...

I was mostly irked at how impractical his approach was. He would not consider things such as Pilatus Command because he was rigid on Multi Engine. I eventually left for a command somewhere else.

To this day, I will have to be in year 2-3 of command at Air Canada to fly a business jet under Contrails. That will likely mark 18 years of flying, countless Sims, countless CRM courses and laying witness to some truly remarkable Captains with 20-30 years of experience I gather information from every day.

Numbers are only part of it....but hey, someone likely pays him a lot to do this....
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leftoftrack
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by leftoftrack »

MeAndMrPenguin wrote:That is totally true.

AC had guys with a year of jet experience were upgrading in 2007.

His approach is flawed. When the majors started hiring heavily in 2003 pilots were leaving quickly. Companies were having a hard time getting Captains to meet his numbers. In fact, I watched horrified as they hired people that had bounced around a lot and likely rejected by numerius airline panels and psych tests get these seats. A few did some very dangerous things and were fired. Good job Brian...

I was mostly irked at how impractical his approach was. He would not consider things such as Pilatus Command because he was rigid on Multi Engine. I eventually left for a command somewhere else.

To this day, I will have to be in year 2-3 of command at Air Canada to fly a business jet under Contrails. That will likely mark 18 years of flying, countless Sims, countless CRM courses and laying witness to some truly remarkable Captains with 20-30 years of experience I gather information from every day.

Numbers are only part of it....but hey, someone likely pays him a lot to do this....
In 2003 Air Canada declared bankruptcy and layed off 1000 pilots there was one job ad every 6 months for a Navajo driver requiring 5000 hrs and a fresh ppc your thinking late 2005-2007
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yycinformer
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by yycinformer »

here's the latest update as of Sept 16, 2016:
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yycinformer
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Re: Contrail Requirements

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yycinformer
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by yycinformer »

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co-joe
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by co-joe »

My theory on this, is that today is the perfect day to tell Mr Contrail to phuk off. During a boom, if you try to play hard ball with him, 2 operators will appear out of the shadows and take the work over. Right now, Sunwest and NCA are the only 703/ 704 players on the feild, GGN and CMA can barely staff their existing fleets, Skyservice is small and expensive. If SW and NCA got together and told Contrail to piss off, and started setting their own hour requirements, who's he going to turn to? What bank in it's right mind would finance a start up to compete with them in this economy?

There is absolutely no reason that a 1200 hour pilot with 1000 hours on type and having been to level D sim trainig 3 times total, can't safely operate a King Air or 1900 into the patch. Now is the time to stand up to this retard.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by iflyforpie »

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Last edited by iflyforpie on Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
trey kule
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by trey kule »

That is a very interesting post.
A couple of points in there got me thinking about a few things.

Good work
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L1900Edge
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by L1900Edge »

Sorry guys, a little behind here...What exactly is the definition of "contrails" in Canada?
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helicopterray
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by helicopterray »

'Contrail' is a consulting company that will carry out an independent audit of aircraft companies on behalf of the customers, ie, Oil and Gas, Forestry, mining, etc.
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

ahramin wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:39 am Panama, when the Calgary corporate flight departments started getting shut down, there was a period of time during which charters were handed out to anyone and everyone with no thought to the safety of the operators. About the time the decision makers at the oil companies were starting to think this was a mistake, a certain corporate pilot saw a business opportunity, created contrails requirements, and sold the oil companies on it as a method of risk management.

So if you want to provide charters to the oil companies, you need to meet contrails requirements. On the pilot side this means meeting the matrix above, or getting a pass on them from the guy who writes it.

In my opinion it is more of a box checking exercise than actual risk management, but the oil companies seem to like it as it has been very successful.
It’s an aviation JSA lol
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PitchLink
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Re: Contrail Requirements

Post by PitchLink »

helicopterray wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:00 pm 'Contrail' is a consulting company that will carry out an independent audit of aircraft companies on behalf of the customers, ie, Oil and Gas, Forestry, mining, etc.
Ya, it’s a double edge sword. Keeps operators on their toes but it’s also doing in some of the older types like the 204. I think it has a place in the industry but it needs to be kept in check as well, maybe by something like uh idk TC!?! LOL
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