Renegotiating with Air Canada

[Stinky]

It remains to be seen what the Eagle pilots actually accomplished, other than put themselves in the unemployment line. The planes are going to a lower cost operator.
The U.S. carriers have found the bottom, minimum wage is what a pilot is worth, or was. The tables have turned since the majors have begun to hire and the 1500 hour rule came in to play.
I don't think we've hit bottom just yet in Canada, ground schools are still being filled.

[Localizer]

We do have power Fanblade .. don't kid yourself .. If only we could stand as a collective group would that power really be seen. They can't control our labour no matter what "law" they want to write. We could all just sit on our ass's and not operate one airplane in this country. THAT .. is power .. and only we control that .. not CR, not Harper .. the question is really who has the nuggets to put their money where their mouth is, as I continue to say .. together we stand, divided we fall.

You continue to call these words .. but its words that lead an army ..

[Fanblade]

We do have power Fanblade .. don't kid yourself .. If only we could stand as a collective group would that power really be seen. They can't control our labour no matter what "law" they want to write. We could all just sit on our ass's and not operate one airplane in this country. THAT .. is power .. and only we control that .. not CR, not Harper .. the question is really who has the nuggets to put their money where their mouth is, as I continue to say .. together we stand, divided we fall.

You continue to call these words .. but its words that lead an army ..

What you are suggesting is illegal. Next to no one would follow.

You need a palatable outcome, and a path to that outcome, that is realistically achievable.

But again, I am repeating myself.

Cheers

[goldenpilot]

Supply and Demand. Employees aren't worth whatever they think, but rather what the free market dictates. There is no accounting for peoples sense of self worth, depending on their vanity. TFWs will displace us all eventually if the program were allowed to continue to expand.

Ah the free market card. Management will play the free market card when it suits them, but will cosy up to the government when it doesn't.

goldenpilot

[DH772]

We do have power Fanblade .. don't kid yourself .. If only we could stand as a collective group would that power really be seen. They can't control our labour no matter what "law" they want to write. We could all just sit on our ass's and not operate one airplane in this country. THAT .. is power .. and only we control that .. not CR, not Harper .. the question is really who has the nuggets to put their money where their mouth is, as I continue to say .. together we stand, divided we fall.

You continue to call these words .. but its words that lead an army ..

HA quite funny! Using an illegal tact is not a solution my friend.
Shall we threaten them with a gun while we are at it?

[Localizer]

Lol .. Are you insinuating that companies are ethical and always operate within the law?

[gearDown2green]

ah ah ah ...

Can't believe it !!! You guys actually love your situation : you complain all the time but never do anything about it,

Stop being so complacent for christ sake !

It's crazy that you guys actually believe in what you write !

Years ago, some people started revolutions because they were tired of seeing their children dying in the mines ...
But they probably were absolutely CrAzY, because what they did was illegal ...

I Wonder what you guys would have done back in those years ... May be the same since they didn't have a nice house, suv
and a boat awaiting for the we ?

[streets ahead]

ah ah ah ...

Can't believe it !!! You guys actually love your situation : you complain all the time but never do anything about it,

Stop being so complacent for christ sake !

It's crazy that you guys actually believe in what you write !

Years ago, some people started revolutions because they were tired of seeing their children dying in the mines ...
But they probably were absolutely CrAzY, because what they did was illegal ...

I Wonder what you guys would have done back in those years ... May be the same since they didn't have a nice house, suv
and a boat awaiting for the we ?

[razorblade]

[teacher]

So teacher, you will walk off job if you're forced into concessions next contract

Of course not that's silly. I will however fight for better wages and working conditions until I either get them or forced to accept what comes down the pipe. Unfortunately, a "B" scale (Rouge and Georgian), lower wages for regional lift (Encore, Sky Regional and Georgian), DC pensions and final offer arbitration are all now a precedent. It will be an up hill battle but I will continue to fight it as long as I can.

I won't scuttle the ship but I won't sail merely down the river on it either.

[rudder]

If 1000 Jazz pilots all resigned the same day, how do you think that Jazz/AC would deal with it? Both AC and Jazz had better be careful about reducing the value of a CPA pilot job so low that one is better off to walk away than stay.

There is leverage. You just need to know when and how to use it.

[Impact]

A bit off topic, but I've heard that Jazz is shutting down the YVR and YHZ bases.

Is this true?

[ourkid2000]

YHZ was shut down a couple months back

[Fanblade]

If 1000 Jazz pilots all resigned the same day, how do you think that Jazz/AC would deal with it? Both AC and Jazz had better be careful about reducing the value of a CPA pilot job so low that one is better off to walk away than stay.

There is leverage. You just need to know when and how to use it.

I agree with you, but even your strategy sounds a little over the top to me. That many people quitting without a job in hand first? Don't buy it.

All I am saying is stop and think right now. What is the goal? What can be realistically achieved? Can status Coe be retained? What is the best outcome for the most amount of people?

Then make your move now while you have something tradable that CR wants. Wait too long and he will simply take it.

[rudder]

All I am saying is stop and think right now. What is the goal? What can be realistically achieved? Can status Coe be retained? What is the best outcome for the most amount of people?

Then make your move now while you have something tradable that CR wants. Wait too long and he will simply take it.

That opportunity has presented itself at least twice in the last 10 years. Unfortunately, the parties that could have generated the most beneficial and sustainable plan could not get to the same place at the same time. And hence we find ourselves where we are today.

My belief is that there is in fact one more (and final) opportunity for the proactive and pragmatic advocates to sit and work to an outcome that exceeds what is available to CR even using his considerable resources and influence.

However, that window of opportunity will not last long and the time to start that discussion was yesterday.

[Fanblade]

All I am saying is stop and think right now. What is the goal? What can be realistically achieved? Can status Coe be retained? What is the best outcome for the most amount of people?

Then make your move now while you have something tradable that CR wants. Wait too long and he will simply take it.

That opportunity has presented itself at least twice in the last 10 years. Unfortunately, the parties that could have generated the most beneficial and sustainable plan could not get to the same place at the same time. And hence we find ourselves where we are today.

My belief is that there is in fact one more (and final) opportunity for the proactive and pragmatic advocates to sit and work to an outcome that exceeds what is available to CR even using his considerable resources and influence.

However, that window of opportunity will not last long and the time to start that discussion was yesterday.

So long as it does not include ACPA pilots making further sacrifices, or accelerating the race to the bottom.

A 190 to express would do both would it not? Further erosion of ACPA work and further erosion of 100 seat pay.

Neither is acceptable nor should it be to anyone including those at express. Every job that leaves mainline represents someone not hired at AC. Every job that leaves mainline represents a job that will go to the lowest bidder. All we would accomplish is more pilots in substandard wages. Correct?

If you think CR will give up the ability to contract out, think again.

If, a big if, I have read you and Loc wrong. That you have a concept that does not include a 190 transfer. Does not include less ACPA jobs. Does not include less pay for a 100 seat aircraft. Then i think everyone would be interested.

So I'll ask point blank.

Does your pragmatic outcome include a 190 transfer to express?

A yes or no answer will suffice.

[rudder]

So I'll ask point blank.

Does your pragmatic outcome include a 190 transfer to express?

A yes or no answer will suffice.

As I said in another posting - the 190's will be gone sooner rather than later. So anybody that tries to build a future based on those 25 aircraft is building a house of cards.

Read in to that what you will. A proper solution will go far beyond squabbling over the remaining 190 fleet.

[dukepoint]

Rudder, the Embryo's cannot be looked at in isolation. They are not "just Embraers". That aircraft is certified for over 100 seats, so don't forget to include in the "sale" every aircraft ever manufactured, or ever will be manufactured with a similar seating capacity. Once that size catagory is gone, it will always be gone, and the next size aircraft will be the new target.

I don't know who you are, but if ACPA pilots want a "pandora's box" of epic proportions cracked open, selling that sized scope to Tier II is exactly the way to do it. It'll make the Sky 175 fiasco and FOS combined, look like a birthday party for toddlers.

DP

[Fanblade]

So I'll ask point blank.

Does your pragmatic outcome include a 190 transfer to express?

A yes or no answer will suffice.

As I said in another posting - the 190's will be gone sooner rather than later. So anybody that tries to build a future based on those 25 aircraft is building a house of cards.

Read in to that what you will. A proper solution will go far beyond squabbling over the remaining 190 fleet.

It wasn't quite yes or no. But direct enough.

Not a chance for the reasons stated above. This will go no where. Anyone trying to bring this concept forward would get hung by their toes by the membership.

Start getting realistic.......as you put it.......should have happened yesterday.

To be honest I don't understand why you would think this idea has any chance at all with the ACPA membership. The disconnect puzzles me.

Why would ACPA “sell" their jobs away? Other than greed for a few, the logic defies me.

You are clearly a smart guy. What am I missing?

[rudder]

To be honest I don't understand why you would think this idea has any chance at all with the ACPA membership. The disconnect puzzles me.

Why would ACPA “sell" their jobs away? Other than greed for a few, the logic defies me.

.... What am I missing?

The FOS CA allows all of the E190's to be removed from service without replacement. AC has already announced that 20 are leaving the fleet.

Likely outcome is replacement on a less that 1:1 basis.

Eventually, the entire 190 fleet will be replaced by a combination of 737's at mainline and 75 seat jets operated by one or a combination of the CPA carriers (the FOS CA allows for another 29 75 seat jets to be operate by CPA carriers).

This will be the outcome absent a better proposition. If this is the outcome that parties desire, then simply do nothing. That also means that Rouge compensation rules will remain the new Achille's Heel for the AC pilots. Lots of Rouge pilots saying that they got a raise.......based on overtime.

For the corporation, the current path is an imperfect solution. A more perfect solution might be more attractive. That report that was just issued suggested that ACPA become more introspective. Perhaps now is that opportunity.