ATP Flight School/FAA PIC time

[jmd51]

Hi there,
Im pretty new to the forum and had some questions for all of you experienced aviators out there. Me and my friend are currently PPL holders and currently working on our night rating in BC. We saw this school online called ATP where you can get your CPL and multi IFR time in their 100 day fast track program. As canadians we we would have to go to their Dayton Beach Florida location for the training as thats where their international students go. As soon as we get there we would get rated on their Seneca's and start finishing our CPL on twins and 172's. We were told, and have also read that when 2 pilots are rated in an aircraft in the USA that they can both log PIC time. Is this correct? For example if we were both to fly accross the USA in a twin engine aircraft and were both rated on it, we are both PIC. How exactly does that work and would it transfer over to PIC time back in Canada? I know that if you dont own your own plane here the only way to really get multi PIC time is to become an instructor or be lucky enough to have a job after getting your Multi IFR rating here. What is your guys opinion? Is it worth it to spend some more money to get about 100 hrs Multi PIC time in 3 months (which is cheaper in the USA) or to stay in Canada and pay twice as much and spend even longer building time? Also has anyone been to or know anyone who has been to ATP in the states?
Thanks

[Colonel Sanders]

Lots of discussion about ATP in reddit r/flying -
look there. Not all of it complimentary.

"Counting hours" is a complicated question. I
might suggest that as TCA PPL holder, you get
your FAA COMM-SMEL-IA and transfer that back
to a TCA CPL SMEL/group 1 IFR via the IPL.

The tricky PIC time that you log can likely be
counted towards your TCA ATPL. Employers may
or may not accept it as PIC when you apply for a
job.

get about 100 hrs Multi PIC time in 3 months

Why so long? I once logged 105 hours multi PIC
in Florida in 21 days. Had nothing else to do, that
February.

[photofly]

We were told, and have also read that when 2 pilots are rated in an aircraft in the USA that they can both log PIC time. Is this correct?

Generally, no. If one of you is under the hood flying on instruments and the other is actually PIC (making command decisions) and acting as safety pilot, yes.

would it transfer over to PIC time back in Canada?

No, not really. PIC time as required in Canada is counted by Canadian rules, not the rules of the country you logged the time in. You'd be lying through your teeth if you claimed credit for time that you know wouldn't count. In fact you might just as well lie outright and pad your logbook with hours you didn't fly, it amounts to the same thing.

[Colonel Sanders]

PF: Wouldn't this funky FAA PIC time count
towards his total time for his TCA ATPL? It
might not count towards the PIC, but I think
it might count towards the total 1500TT.

If it didn't, the IPL would not honour an FAA
ATP holder with 1500TT. But it does - an FAA
ATP holder with these funky hours can get a
TCA ATPL via the IPL.

This is complicated. Don't expect to get a
straight, consistent answer.

[photofly]

It's reasonably straightforward as to who may log PIC, even in the US: see here:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/fie ... 20TIME.pdf

If you're not flying under the hood, and the aircraft and operation only requires one pilot, then only one person can log PIC.

If you are flying under the hood then one of you can *be* PIC, not under the hood, and both of you can log PIC, as the guy under the hood is the sole manipulator of the controls.

Canada doesn't have the "sole manipulator of the controls" rule: if you want to claim credit with TC for time as PIC, you actually have to *be* PIC for that time - therefore with one pilot under the hood, still only one of you can tell Transport Canada you were PIC. If the guy not under the hood is the PIC then the guy under the hood can claim credit for dual time, I guess (I'm not sure) just like he could in Canada if flying under the hood (remember the rules about what instrument experience you need for an instrument rating - not all of it has to be with an instructor).

Unless the OP and his buddy want to spend alternate hours wearing silly head-gear and staring only at the instrument panel while in VMC as they cross the USA, I don't think the one-pilot-under-the-hood scenario is going to help them. I guess they could lie about wearing the hood and not wear it, but then if they're going to lie they could just lie more easily and make up the hours entirely.

Even in the US though unless you're flying under the hood only one pilot can log PIC.

To the OP: I'm sorry it's not the answer you wanted to hear. But I suspect you knew that all along, which is why you're hoping someone will say it's ok. It isn't.

[jmd51]

We were told, and have also read that when 2 pilots are rated in an aircraft in the USA that they can both log PIC time. Is this correct?

Generally, no. If one of you is under the hood flying on instruments and the other is actually PIC (making command decisions) and acting as safety pilot, yes.

would it transfer over to PIC time back in Canada?

No, not really. PIC time as required in Canada is counted by Canadian rules, not the rules of the country you logged the time in. You'd be lying through your teeth if you claimed credit for time that you know wouldn't count. In fact you might just as well lie outright and pad your logbook with hours you didn't fly, it amounts to the same thing.

So why do international student come to canada to get their licenses? Does their PIC time in canada not count when they go back to their own country?

PF: Wouldn't this funky FAA PIC time count
towards his total time for his TCA ATPL? It
might not count towards the PIC, but I think
it might count towards the total 1500TT.

If it didn't, the IPL would not honour an FAA
ATP holder with 1500TT. But it does - an FAA
ATP holder with these funky hours can get a
TCA ATPL via the IPL.

This is complicated. Don't expect to get a
straight, consistent answer.

Exactly what I was thinking, if it does not count as PIC time when I get back to canada, it should at least count for the total time I have on airplanes right? Also woulnt at least some of the PIC time logged in USA count in Canada, if its on multi engine, even if there is 2 pilots?

It's reasonably straightforward as to who may log PIC, even in the US: see here:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/fie ... 20TIME.pdf

If you're not flying under the hood, and the aircraft and operation only requires one pilot, then only one person can log PIC.

If you are flying under the hood then one of you can *be* PIC, not under the hood, and both of you can log PIC, as the guy under the hood is the sole manipulator of the controls.

Canada doesn't have the "sole manipulator of the controls" rule: if you want to claim credit with TC for time as PIC, you actually have to *be* PIC for that time - therefore with one pilot under the hood, still only one of you can tell Transport Canada you were PIC. If the guy not under the hood is the PIC then the guy under the hood can claim credit for dual time, I guess (I'm not sure) just like he could in Canada if flying under the hood (remember the rules about what instrument experience you need for an instrument rating - not all of it has to be with an instructor).

Unless the OP and his buddy want to spend alternate hours wearing silly head-gear and staring only at the instrument panel while in VMC as they cross the USA, I don't think the one-pilot-under-the-hood scenario is going to help them. I guess they could lie about wearing the hood and not wear it, but then if they're going to lie they could just lie more easily and make up the hours entirely.

Even in the US though unless you're flying under the hood only one pilot can log PIC.

To the OP: I'm sorry it's not the answer you wanted to hear. But I suspect you knew that all along, which is why you're hoping someone will say it's ok. It isn't.

So basically in the USA, as long as one of the pilots is under the hood, they can both claim PIC? I've also been told that even when you're with an instructor in the USA and trianing for your CPL, you are both logging PIC. Im confused, does anyone have a clear answer?

[photofly]

So why do international student come to canada to get their licenses? Does their PIC time in canada not count when they go back to their own country?

It depends on the rules of that country, I suppose.

So basically in the USA, as long as one of the pilots is under the hood, they can both claim PIC? I've also been told that even when you're with an instructor in the USA and trianing for your CPL, you are both logging PIC. Im confused, does anyone have a clear answer?

Is it really too much trouble to read what the FAA tells you? The link I posted is chapter-and-verse, from the government agency responsible. Read it again.

I've been told the moon is made of Gorgonzola. Just because I've been told that, it doesn't make it true.

[Colonel Sanders]

I'm rather partial to Emmental.