Renegotiating with Air Canada

[TheStig]

To be honest I don't understand why you would think this idea has any chance at all with the ACPA membership. The disconnect puzzles me.

Why would ACPA “sell" their jobs away? Other than greed for a few, the logic defies me.

.... What am I missing?

The FOS CA allows all of the E190's to be removed from service without replacement. AC has already announced that 20 are leaving the fleet.

Likely outcome is replacement on a less that 1:1 basis.

Eventually, the entire 190 fleet will be replaced by a combination of 737's at mainline and 75 seat jets operated by one or a combination of the CPA carriers (the FOS CA allows for another 29 75 seat jets to be operate by CPA carriers.

For the corporation, the current path is an imperfect solution. A more perfect solution might be more attractive. That report that was just issued suggested that ACPA become more introspective. Perhaps now is that opportunity.

I'm not sure what you're getting at either Rudder? What is the more perfect solution you're referring to?

No doubt, at some point the EMJ will leave to fleet, their ASM cost isn't competitive. However, as the contract stands any aircraft with more than 76 seats will be flown by ACPA pilots, if they choose to replace the remaining 25 E190's with larger narrow bodies, just like they plan on replacing the 20 Boeing is purchasing, with 10 larger narrow bodies, that's their decision. If the airline wants to pursue cost reductions instead of departure frequency that's a business decision ACPA can't stand in the way of, but if they wish to fly an aircraft with more than 76 seats, it will be done by ACPA pilots. The E190's will not be transferred to Jazz.

The ASM ratio of 100:29 has also been right at the limit since the E175's were transferred to SR, so if Jazz were to start flying more (up to the 60 MJA limit) CRJ705's or replace classic Dash's with more Q400's it would have to come at the expense of existing Tier 2 flying.

ACPA being introspective doesn't seem like a good thing for other pilot groups, I interpret it to mean that they are willing to throw everyone else under the bus if there is a perceived benefit to its members.

[mbav8r]

Stig, just a slight correction, the Teplinski arbitration recently allowed SR to keep the 175s but the ASMs flown are to be considered mainline flying, otherwise they would have had to go back to mainline as the transfer was in violation of the four party small jet agreement.
Shockingly or not so shocking, ACPA sided with AC during this arbitration, they wanted the SJA to be ended in favour of bottom feeder wages. The very definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face!

[TheStig]

Wow! I had no idea, pathetic, but not surprising. I'd heard that the E175 transfer had brought the ratio over 29:1000. Rereading my last post, I'd just wanted to make sure that it's clear, I'm am not against Jazz pilots. I've been doing my best to participate in this thread in hopes of continuing the discussion in the open to better understand the realities of the upcoming hurdles we're going to face as separate groups and collectively.

[Localizer]

Further to Teplinski .. my understanding from someone who should be in the "know" says AC wanted to transfer the remaining 190s to Sky but that plan had the brakes put on my Mr. Teplinski .. hence the reason those a/c are staying at mainline.

[DBC]

Further to Teplinski .. my understanding from someone who should be in the "know" says AC wanted to transfer the remaining 190s to Sky but that plan had the brakes put on my Mr. Teplinski .. hence the reason those a/c are staying at mainline.

Well it's obvious that AC would want to farm the 190s (and every other airframe we operate) out to a cheaper operator, but I don't see how they could have pulled it off under the current contract in any way.

[Localizer]

DBC .. As I understand it, ACPA is currently in discussions with AC regarding Rouge expansion .. I'm sure any further transfers of a/c above 90 seats would be incorporated in those talks. I can't really see those discussions being very "win win" .. Rouge expansion? and lose scope on 90 seats? The scope issue doesn't matter if the SJA still holds water, AC doesn't want the planes at Jazz, and Mr. Teplinski won't let them go anywhere else .. interesting.

[rudder]

DBC .. As I understand it, ACPA is currently in discussions with AC regarding Rouge expansion .. I'm sure any further transfers of a/c above 90 seats would be incorporated in those talks. I can't really see those discussions being very "win win" .. Rouge expansion? and lose scope on 90 seats? The scope issue doesn't matter if the SJA still holds water, AC doesn't want the planes at Jazz, and Mr. Teplinski won't let them go anywhere else .. interesting.

His name is "Teplitsky".

There is no harm to ACPA if the Rouge brand is expanded provided the wages and work rules for the ACPA pilots on those aircraft are equal to those at the mainline.

[Fanblade]

DBC .. As I understand it, ACPA is currently in discussions with AC regarding Rouge expansion .. I'm sure any further transfers of a/c above 90 seats would be incorporated in those talks. I can't really see those discussions being very "win win" .. Rouge expansion? and lose scope on 90 seats? The scope issue doesn't matter if the SJA still holds water, AC doesn't want the planes at Jazz, and Mr. Teplinski won't let them go anywhere else .. interesting.

The current discussions do not include the remaining 190's. Again all ya gotta do is ask someone. I didn't get too many details. Sounds like the company wants 320/321's at Rouge. Yeah I know everyone and their dog has known that since last summer. Sounds like they are also tight on the 29:100 ratio and are looking for more room. We are proposing something that would return “normal seniority progression". I'm guessing (stress guessing) that means better WAWCON at Rouge.

That jives with the joint NL a few weeks back.

[Localizer]

Sorry rudder, I copied the name from someone else's post, as for your comment about Rouge, i believe fanblade used the expression "the horses have left the barn"?

Fanblade, I wasn't suggesting the 190's were part of the discussion, merely pointing out that this would be the time to discuss it.

[Fanblade]

Thanks loc. Got it.

scope issue doesn't matter if the SJA still holds water, AC doesn't want the planes at Jazz, and Mr. Teplinski won't let them go anywhere else .. interesting.

Can you explain this SJA to me? I know the history but obviously missing the fine points. It looks like your saying Teplitsky has control over allocation of all 75 seat jets AC adds to their fleet. Does this expire at some point?

Could he allocate 75 seat jets to GGN for example? I'm guessing no as it is a four party agreement as I understand it.

Would it be reasonable to think that if AC squired some 175's Teplitsky would likely allot them to AC who then could do as they please with them. If AC acquired 705's Teplitsky would likely allot them to Jazz. So if AC wants to operate 705's at GGN they probably won't be able to do so.

[Localizer]

Apparently when AC made the decision to transfer the 175's to SKR, ALPA brought the issue back to Teplitsky because they believed it violated the SJA. If you recall those 15 E175's were suppose to be Jazz 705's, but the argument was AC pilots would lose jobs without those a/c because AC was planning on shedding some other a/c (I believe some of the A319's) .. that never happened. Jump forward .. Teplitsky as I understand it wasn't impressed with the dealings (intentionally deceived him), but AC had already made the transfer to SKR, he let it go with the caveat any future transfers are to Jazz.

[Fanblade]

Apparently when AC made the decision to transfer the 175's to SKR, ALPA brought the issue back to Teplitsky because they believed it violated the SJA. If you recall those 15 E175's were suppose to be Jazz 705's, but the argument was AC pilots would lose jobs without those a/c because AC was planning on shedding some other a/c (I believe some of the A319's) .. that never happened. Jump forward .. Teplitsky as I understand it wasn't impressed with the dealings (intentionally deceived him), but AC had already made the transfer to SKR, he let it go with the caveat any future transfers are to Jazz.

Thanks Loc,

This is before my time and looks to have been removed from the FOS contract. There is a notwithstanding clause in article one but the LOC itself shows deleted. I'm going to assume that makes ACPA a bystander on this issue now.

Your last line uses the word transfer. Is that an error? AC doesn't have any SJ's left to transfer. I assume what you are saying is if AC were to acquire any SJ's Teplitsky would send them to Jazz.

Does this agreement have an expiry date? Or does it go on forever?

[Localizer]

The agreement was upheld in Feb 2013 .. I don't recall what constitutes a "small jet". I believe the agreement either has no expiration or forms part of the Jazz CPA.

[DBC]

Contractually to ACPA, "Small Jet Aircraft" are up to 55 seats or less. "Medium Jet Aircraft" are in excess of 55 but not more than 90 seats and CPA carriers can operate up to 60 of them at a max of 76 seats.

[Fanblade]

Thanks DBC. So it comes down to Teplitsky controlling the allocation of 90 seat jets with 76 seats in them. AC doesn't control where they go.

60 are allowed. 31 are operating currently. 29 more can operate, but if AC acquires them Teplitsky will give them to Jazz, the more expensive operator. AC likely wants them at Sky or GGN as part of their (cheaper) regional diversification strategy.

So there is a stalemate. You know I didn't realize just how convoluted this situation was.

If AC thinks they are trapped in a non competitive situation that they can't get the parties to address, it may force them to take a much more aggressive approach. Or just wait for the first opportunity to opt completely out of a CPA with Jazz. No wonder Chorus and AC's relationship is so strained.

This type of situation, if not addressed, won't end well.

[rudder]

Jump forward .. Teplitsky as I understand it wasn't impressed with the dealings (intentionally deceived him), but AC had already made the transfer to SKR, he let it go with the caveat any future transfers are to Jazz.

Where does is say that in his January 29, 2013 award?

[Localizer]

It doesn't ..

I heard that from an individual that was part of the process.

[Fanblade]

Rumour has it that ACPA has a TA with Air Canada that will allow a dramatic increase in the amount to 76 seat aircraft flown at the Regionals.

I wasn't given any specifics. Just reassured that all flying above 76 seats remains at mainline.

[Bajan Pilot]

Here we go with those rumours again.

[Fanblade]

Your right. There is no TA. We just got an email stating its getting close and details will be shared when able.

That's what happens when you post rumours. My bad

It appears a crucial “hurdle" was cleared. What ever that means