I am suprised to find that there are AME's out in the workforce who are considering paying for their own endorsement courses. Are we starting to head down the road of buying a job?
I have no problems with an employer training someone and asking them to sign on for a commitment time of 2 years. But to go out and pay for an endorsement?
Training is part of this industry. It is and should remain a a part of doing business.
But to each their own I guess.
Cheers Nick.
Buying an endorsement?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore
Endorsements
I have gone all three routes on endorsements.
Obviously the operator pays route is cheapest and if you are involved with this it is a good carrer builder. Down side is the waiting and lack of specialized training which can enhance your skills set.
Signing a 1 or 2 year commitment is common if your a new employee or a contractor and probably the best route. You ussually get tied in at a lower overall renumeratiion. However you get the time on type which is critical.
There is no real value in having an endorsement if you don't get the experience soon after.
Buying an endorsement is great if it moves you into a position you want. Again however it is a waste if you don't get the time in.
If you buy the training expect to get lots of professional jealousy issues from your co-workers.
This is simply not an option for many people, who then grip about others doing it.
Check out the want ads.
A NG737 or A320 endorsements are in short supply at the moment.
In terms of biggest bang for the buck spend your money on training which provides and additional rating such as E or S.
Obviously the operator pays route is cheapest and if you are involved with this it is a good carrer builder. Down side is the waiting and lack of specialized training which can enhance your skills set.
Signing a 1 or 2 year commitment is common if your a new employee or a contractor and probably the best route. You ussually get tied in at a lower overall renumeratiion. However you get the time on type which is critical.
There is no real value in having an endorsement if you don't get the experience soon after.
Buying an endorsement is great if it moves you into a position you want. Again however it is a waste if you don't get the time in.
If you buy the training expect to get lots of professional jealousy issues from your co-workers.
This is simply not an option for many people, who then grip about others doing it.
Check out the want ads.
A NG737 or A320 endorsements are in short supply at the moment.
In terms of biggest bang for the buck spend your money on training which provides and additional rating such as E or S.
Same old Same old as with the pilot group... Buying a job??? Companies that are respectable will train suitable candidates.. Yes there may be a training bond involved but the people who lower themselves to buying a job... Come on... have some self respect..
I know a couple guys at A.T. in YVR who did it and think of themselves as heroes.. while the rest of us think of them a ZERO's...
I know a couple guys at A.T. in YVR who did it and think of themselves as heroes.. while the rest of us think of them a ZERO's...
This industry is crap. Buying an edoresment is just plain foolish. If you have to spend $10000+ just to work for a company then you have other issues. Be patient, make the right contacts, a course will be offered to you sooner rather than later. I don't think buying an endorsement is dragging the rest of the AME down in payroll department, it is however a foolish move since most people who stay in this industry long enough will be offered courses. Get some experience first, don't sweat it out trying to get on your first course. Just my opinion coming from someone with 3 endorsements (767, 320, 340), $30000+ worth of education cost me $0 and ofcourse I was paid while taking them.
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plainfixer
- Rank 2
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:58 pm
Cascade Aerospace up until very recently, will accept Resumes from any one but to get an interview you had to have 737 and/or 757 ratings. Experience did not matter at all. no rating = no interview.
So for the better half of this year they only accepted 737/757 rated guys/gals thinking that this is a better option.
Now they have realised the error in their ways (3 Hr personnel later) and are now reading the resumes to see what people have.
There has been a few persons turn up on the shop floor without the ratings and have much more knowledge that the ones who have just "purchased" the ratings thru the 'EI' option.
So if you can get into a position/company based on your skills and ability then go for it and get given rating courses(if they do that), if you cannot get a look in ANY door, then purchase your rating course. Be sure to talk to transport canada to make sure the course you will be doing will be accepted, especally if it does not have a TC number.
I personally would have purchased a course, but thankfully for me Air Canada started to recall their guys and created holes for us less fortunate (and sometimes better skilled/experienced) people. Take it what way you want.
Keep knocking on doors right now guys, the companies are losing people back to air canada. So they are now looking for new persons.
Good luck.
So for the better half of this year they only accepted 737/757 rated guys/gals thinking that this is a better option.
Now they have realised the error in their ways (3 Hr personnel later) and are now reading the resumes to see what people have.
There has been a few persons turn up on the shop floor without the ratings and have much more knowledge that the ones who have just "purchased" the ratings thru the 'EI' option.
So if you can get into a position/company based on your skills and ability then go for it and get given rating courses(if they do that), if you cannot get a look in ANY door, then purchase your rating course. Be sure to talk to transport canada to make sure the course you will be doing will be accepted, especally if it does not have a TC number.
I personally would have purchased a course, but thankfully for me Air Canada started to recall their guys and created holes for us less fortunate (and sometimes better skilled/experienced) people. Take it what way you want.
Keep knocking on doors right now guys, the companies are losing people back to air canada. So they are now looking for new persons.
Good luck.
Twotter: "Same old Same old as with the pilot group... Buying a job??? Companies that are respectable will train suitable candidates.. Yes there may be a training bond involved but the people who lower themselves to buying a job... Come on... have some self respect..
I know a couple guys at A.T. in YVR who did it and think of themselves as heroes.. while the rest of us think of them a ZERO's..."
Thats a bit rough isn't it?
Congratulations to the Air Transat guys that had there courses paid for them. Pat yourselves on the back for being the best of the best and belittle your “zero” coworkers who paid for their course in order to advance.
Aviation is a tough industry in Canada and I can not knock some one who has the initiative to want to move up. If paying for a course gives you an advantage then go for it. It is simply an extension of your education. You are not buying a job you are investing in yourself. The way you invested in yourself when you went to College or University. Aircraft maintenance is a business and you have to market yourself accordingly, the same way business majors market themselves with an MBA.
“Wait and you will get you turn” Easy to say when you are at the top. Read the posts on this site. They are filled with guys who have spent 20, 30, and 40 years working in the bush, in the heat, in the cold, and have ended up damn bitter and as negative as they come. Someone who is young, motivated and has enough foresight to see a good future should not be belittled for investing in themselves. If it gets them were they want to be faster, then why not? Why wait 10 years for an opportunity to present itself when you can create your own opportunity now?
Having a company pay for an endorsement is great and usually means that you are worth investing in. But it does not qualify you to look down on others who chose to pay for a course to seize an opportunity. Some companies are very cheap and will not course their guys. This does not mean the technicians are not good quality, it means they work for a cheap company. In order to move on to where they want, paying for a course may a good option.
Times are often tough and you need every advantage and opportunity that comes your way. If you think paying for a course will give you an edge then go for it.
I know a couple guys at A.T. in YVR who did it and think of themselves as heroes.. while the rest of us think of them a ZERO's..."
Thats a bit rough isn't it?
Congratulations to the Air Transat guys that had there courses paid for them. Pat yourselves on the back for being the best of the best and belittle your “zero” coworkers who paid for their course in order to advance.
Aviation is a tough industry in Canada and I can not knock some one who has the initiative to want to move up. If paying for a course gives you an advantage then go for it. It is simply an extension of your education. You are not buying a job you are investing in yourself. The way you invested in yourself when you went to College or University. Aircraft maintenance is a business and you have to market yourself accordingly, the same way business majors market themselves with an MBA.
“Wait and you will get you turn” Easy to say when you are at the top. Read the posts on this site. They are filled with guys who have spent 20, 30, and 40 years working in the bush, in the heat, in the cold, and have ended up damn bitter and as negative as they come. Someone who is young, motivated and has enough foresight to see a good future should not be belittled for investing in themselves. If it gets them were they want to be faster, then why not? Why wait 10 years for an opportunity to present itself when you can create your own opportunity now?
Having a company pay for an endorsement is great and usually means that you are worth investing in. But it does not qualify you to look down on others who chose to pay for a course to seize an opportunity. Some companies are very cheap and will not course their guys. This does not mean the technicians are not good quality, it means they work for a cheap company. In order to move on to where they want, paying for a course may a good option.
Times are often tough and you need every advantage and opportunity that comes your way. If you think paying for a course will give you an edge then go for it.
Planefixer,
I have seen first hand how Cascade Aerospace operates and I am not sure why anyone would want to work there? Obviously this company has some huge moral issues but it isn't uncommon in BC to see so many DogF*ckers in one building. I couldn't see why I would want to spend my money for a cheap ass company to meet it's training requirements. Even Avmax in YYC pays for courses and they have been known to be one of the cheapest companies out there.
I have seen first hand how Cascade Aerospace operates and I am not sure why anyone would want to work there? Obviously this company has some huge moral issues but it isn't uncommon in BC to see so many DogF*ckers in one building. I couldn't see why I would want to spend my money for a cheap ass company to meet it's training requirements. Even Avmax in YYC pays for courses and they have been known to be one of the cheapest companies out there.
Buying a Job
I am not sure about Cascade.
I am sure however that if you go to Avmax with an endorsement that they need they will pay more.
You should be able to recover your course costs in two years and then enjoy the benifit.
Put yourself in their shoes.
If someone walks in with no endorsement do you hire them and train them so they can then migrate to anouther operator?
I would certainly look harder and longer at people who have the initiative to develop their skills set.
Any talk of talent or capability is irrelevant. Companies hire on training and more importantly endorsements, then experience.
If more engineers understood this perhaps wages would rise.
I am sure however that if you go to Avmax with an endorsement that they need they will pay more.
You should be able to recover your course costs in two years and then enjoy the benifit.
Put yourself in their shoes.
If someone walks in with no endorsement do you hire them and train them so they can then migrate to anouther operator?
I would certainly look harder and longer at people who have the initiative to develop their skills set.
Any talk of talent or capability is irrelevant. Companies hire on training and more importantly endorsements, then experience.
If more engineers understood this perhaps wages would rise.
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plainfixer
- Rank 2
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:58 pm
Cascade is just an example.
Yes, if you want to save money and reducing your training budget is the easiest, you would naturally hire endorsed persons first. This at first seems a great idea as you are hiring endorsed persons who do not require training thus you save your money.
Now, the problem is if you [b]only[/b] hire endorsed persons and you don't care or want to know about their experience on type. Zero time on type, dosen't matter. Dosen't seem like a problem? or is it?
Ask Cascade about that.
Now if you were concerned about losing guys to another operator after you just spent all that time and money training them. What you should be really concerned about is the work environment you have or will create. Treat these people like Sh*t and they will go.
You also have to look at your hiring standards and how you hire these persons. Sometimes, and not always, you can pick the persons who will be most likey to leave. Bond them after a course for two years and get 2 years work out of them, that will fix that, right?
And yes, engineers should be aware of this. Engineers should be concerned about other matters, like getting a job in their field of experitise.
Its just an opinion.
Yes, if you want to save money and reducing your training budget is the easiest, you would naturally hire endorsed persons first. This at first seems a great idea as you are hiring endorsed persons who do not require training thus you save your money.
Now, the problem is if you [b]only[/b] hire endorsed persons and you don't care or want to know about their experience on type. Zero time on type, dosen't matter. Dosen't seem like a problem? or is it?
Ask Cascade about that.
Now if you were concerned about losing guys to another operator after you just spent all that time and money training them. What you should be really concerned about is the work environment you have or will create. Treat these people like Sh*t and they will go.
You also have to look at your hiring standards and how you hire these persons. Sometimes, and not always, you can pick the persons who will be most likey to leave. Bond them after a course for two years and get 2 years work out of them, that will fix that, right?
And yes, engineers should be aware of this. Engineers should be concerned about other matters, like getting a job in their field of experitise.
Its just an opinion.
Personal Decision ?
It is not about saving money on training.
Normally you pay endorsed people coming in more so there really is no saving, in fact over a period of years it could cost more.
Experience is of course important, but attitude is also a key. People who are 9 too 5; clock watchers do not normally have the initiative to invest in their skills. It is part of a screening process to hire keeners.
Losing people is problematic for everyone but I maintain that people with their own endorsements do not have to look as hard and long for the wages and job opportunities. Therefore they are more stable and less likely to hop around looking for what is most suitable.
I know of several engineers who have skipped out after having been typed. In one instance the guy did not come back from the course, he hired on with another company while doing the training.
I am sure there are horror stories on the opposite side of this story. Cascade is I imagine a bastion of west coast unionists and must be a real headache to manage from an HR perspective.
Training is as crucial to an AME’s success as ample stores inventory is to maintenance operations. You should never stop training and if it is not being offered then you go out looking for it.
I personally don’t leave things which are important to me for others to decide.
Normally you pay endorsed people coming in more so there really is no saving, in fact over a period of years it could cost more.
Experience is of course important, but attitude is also a key. People who are 9 too 5; clock watchers do not normally have the initiative to invest in their skills. It is part of a screening process to hire keeners.
Losing people is problematic for everyone but I maintain that people with their own endorsements do not have to look as hard and long for the wages and job opportunities. Therefore they are more stable and less likely to hop around looking for what is most suitable.
I know of several engineers who have skipped out after having been typed. In one instance the guy did not come back from the course, he hired on with another company while doing the training.
I am sure there are horror stories on the opposite side of this story. Cascade is I imagine a bastion of west coast unionists and must be a real headache to manage from an HR perspective.
Training is as crucial to an AME’s success as ample stores inventory is to maintenance operations. You should never stop training and if it is not being offered then you go out looking for it.
I personally don’t leave things which are important to me for others to decide.
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TheMachine
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milendimitrovbg
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rotorhead350
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I work on the rotary wing side and seeing how most guys in our line of business are always moving around from company to company as contractors it really doesn't make sense for employers to pay for our endorsements. I will usually pay for the endorsement myself and then make an arrangement with whoever i am working for to pay me back a portion of my training every month, usually divide the cost by 12, and that includes accomadations and meals. That way if I leave within a year I get a portion of my endorsement paid for and the company gets the use of my service without getting stiffed for the whole cost...................RH
