RCAF TFW Pilots

[Nark]

Dear appalled Canadians,

If you are so mad about foreigners stealing your military jobs, do something about it. Head down to a recruitment center and fix it.

Gilles,
I'll be at Oshkosh next year, I'll take any Canadian beer. The Aussies are currently poaching officers and enlisted to join their ranks.

Also, a field grade officer (Major, LtCol, Col) is a manager, expected to lead. How many infantry or artillery Majors are out in the field day to day with their grunts? About the same amount who fly day to day. It's part of their job description, not to fly as much as the more junior officers.

[trampbike]

Head down to a recruitment center and fix it.

It has nothing to do with the amount of applicants.

[Gannet167]

Gilles, the guys who did training on the original F-18 pilots were, ahem, fighter pilots who would have flown previous fighters. Their skills are are relevant as a 767 captain who, with 20,000 hrs of global flying, gets a conversion course on a 777. C-17 pilots were all initially trained by the USAF - and still are. The first few crews of J model Herc pilots - trained by USAF. Many exchange positions exist to bring corporate knowledge between both air forces.

Those "same guys" are all retired now or about to retire. You cannot place an add for a person with the skills required to be a military aviator. It takes, literally, an entire career to achieve some of the required qualifications. When all the guys who have those quals quit, you're stuck. And without the experience to pass along, training new pilots becomes difficult. The shortage of personnel, as mentioned earlier stems from the massive cuts by the government back years ago.

They can recruit, but it still takes years and years to train replacements with these qualifications. The pilot training system is breaking records for the number of graduates it puts out, but there is still a massive gap in the more experienced and qualified positions. These guys are NOT taking jobs from Canadians. They aren't brand new recruits who are occupying positions in the pilot training system. These are fully qualified, combat experienced pilots who we CANNOT find in Canada. These qualifications do not exist outside of military aviation and there simply are no Canadians with these quals outside of the military, unless they're retired. The ones inside the military are retiring by the day.

It's a little like saying to an airline that needs a 747 training captain, test pilot, speaks 5 languages, has a degree in aeronautical engineering, - why don't you just go to the flying club and hire a "pilot" from the 172 ranks? Both are pilots - right? It takes a decade or more to get those quals. The guy with a fresh commercial license isn't having a job taken away from him if he never was qualified for it in the first place, and wont be for another 10 or 15 years.

Desk jobs, as much as pilots hate them, are necessary positions for pilots to fill. When decisions are made regarding operations, often a pilot with real flying experience is needed to keep the bean counters and lawyers from doing stupid things. It's a fact of running and Air Force - pilots are required to be involved in leadership and management activities.

Again, these are not TFW, they are permanent and many are now Canadian citizens.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Again, these are not TFW, they are permanent and many are now Canadian citizens.

Well I don't know if the Minister of Defense has a magic wand that can turn foreigners who applied for TFW status in 2013 to be Canadian citizens in 2014, but for common mortals, a TFW can apply to become a permanent resident after 2 years in Canada, and that process takes a while. To become a Citizen, its takes 4 years of residence now, after becoming a landed immigrant and half of the time spent as TFW can be credited towards that 4 years.......

[Skyhunter]

Gilles, used to have respect for you. You are way outside your lane here!

These people are not taking away jobs from Canadians! We are not slowing the training system to allow them to take jobs, the training system is still running at max capacity.

This nothing like the TFW situation, you are comparing raisins to watermelons! Stick to what you truly know.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

A little context here:

I have been fighting the use of TFW pilots by Canadian airlines, who used the lack of a certain type rating to exclude otherwise qualified Canadian pilots and hired type rated foreigners instead.
We have for two years, been trying to educate ESDC that a type rating was a short course that any experienced pilot could pass and that what made a pilot capable of being the Pilot in Command of a passenger 737 was not his type rating, but his overall baggage, his total hours, his experience.
If one has to chose between a 10,000 hour Airbus 320 captain without a 737 type rating and a 250 hour pilot with a 737 type rating in his wallet, an airline will always hire the 10,000 guy, and provide him with the type rating rather than hire the 250 pilot that already has one.
Sunwing's president on the other hand explained to a journalist that when he was forced to hire a A-320 Captain and have to train him to become a B-737 pilot, it was like if he needed a brain surgeon and that he was forced to hire a heart surgeon. Not a real comparison because it takes years to go from heart to brain surgeon, but just 6 weeks to go from A-320 Captain to B-737 captain.

In late Oct 2013, I sent an Access to Information Request to ESDC to see all the LMO applications that had been received for pilots in the course of the year. I was targeting the airlines that abused the TFW program to hire pilots. I expected a few applications from the known culprits, Canjet, Sunwing etc.

What I received instead was a 1434 page Pdf document on a CD that contained over 100 applications from over 75 aircraft operators. Several of the Operators had several applications on file. I began the long and tedious job of looking through this file to find what I was looking for : the airlines culprits. The document was not bookmarked. The first three applications were for an aerial Surveillance pilot, a Helicopter pilot and a Regular pilot for a Canadian Commuter Airline.

The following 19 applications, over 150 pages, were all Canadian Forces applications for foreign military pilots. I was shocked. One RCAF application did help me though, and I sent it as a argument to ESDC.

The RCAF applied for an LMO to have an ex RAF Nimrod Commander come over to Canada. The application stated that his extensive experience in Maritime Patrol, Sovereignty Patrols and anti submarine warfare (on the Nimrod) was what was needed and he would be able to convert as an Aurora Captain with "minimal training" .

The argument that the RCAF provided to obtain the foreign pilot was the exact opposite as what Sunwing airlines stated when Sunwing would claim that a 20,000 hour Canadian Captain who had flown the Boeing 757 and Airbus 320 was not qualified to fly the Boeing 737, and that a checked foreign Boeing 737 had to be imported instead.

The RCAF and Sunwing Airlines gave contradictory and opposing arguments for needing TFW pilots and ESDC approved both applications regardless.

The RCAF emphasized the Air to Air refuelling experince to import an RAF pilot who did the Air to Air Refuelling in the RAF with a different type than our CC-150 Polaris, yet, when it came to needing to import C-17, Chinook and C-130J foreign pilots, the RCAF put the emphasis on the type experience, just like Sunwing and many other Canadian operators.

Any reason given to ESDC to exclude Canadian pilots and import TFW pilots seemed to be accepted as valid.

The rest of the 1434 page file included applications for helicopter pilots, crop duster pilots, flight instructors, executive jet pilots, test pilots, commuter pilots, airlines pilots, survey pilots etc. Anything that flies was importing TFW pilots. Just about any excuse to hire a foreigner pilot was deemed acceptable.

At least I expected the RCAF and the Canadian government to lead by example, not to stoop down to what all these other operators were doing, which was to hire foreigners to save on training money when training pilots is and always has been part of doing business of aviation.

If its faster, easier and cheaper to import foreign pilots rather than invest in our pilots at home, so where does one draw the line ?

I didn't expect this from our own military. If the RCAF can do it, why not all the others ?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles, used to have respect for you.

So did I for you. Every time a Sunwing guy does not like my statements, they attack me. Welcome to that little game. It will get you tons of respect.

[Posthumane]

So what you're saying is that you were appalled when sunwing was trying to hire type rated 250hr wonders over experienced 10000hr captains without a type rating because the experienced guys is who they should be hiring, but are equally appalled when the RCAF is trying to hire experienced captains who trained on a different aircraft type (basically the same as not being type rated)? A little contradictory there isn't it?

Anyway, at least sunwing has a choice between hiring an experienced guy or a type rated guy. The RCAF has a choice between getting an experienced foreigner (not a TFW as they are expected to get their citizenship while serving in the forces, as has been stated several times and you've ignored). or someone who is neither experienced OR type rated OR has any military officer experience.

Apart from all the money the RCAF spends training pilots to fly, they also spend a lot of money training them to be military leaders. Putting them to work at a desk is not a waste of skills, it is a use of one of the other skill sets that they have been provided.

Please answer this question seriously: who should they be hiring rather than these foreign experienced officers to fill the spots of retiring experienced officers? Training a flying officer from scratch is not like the 6 week type rating you mentioned, but a lot more like the training of a heart surgeon you mentioned.

[Skyhunter]

Gilles,

The only way your argument would hold any water was if, and only if, the RCAF cut back on there training and recruiting and then hired foreign applicants instead. This is not the case. To give perspective, I have a son who will be applying to pilot training in the RCAF later this year, I am not worried about him getting in because of TFW. If he was trying to be a pilot at Sunwing I would. I have a personal interest in Canadians getting into the RCAF, and I view it as a non issue. That should say something.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Please answer this question seriously: who should they be hiring rather than these foreign experienced officers to fill the spots of retiring experienced officers? Training a flying officer from scratch is not like the 6 week type rating you mentioned, but a lot more like the training of a heart surgeon you mentioned.

I did reply about the Citizenship issue. They will perhaps one day become Canadian citizens when they become eligible. For now their Immigration status in Canada is that of a Foreigner with a Work Permit issued by Immigration Canada. The same status that the Sunwing TFW have. Exactly. But they are also Commissioned Officers of the RCAF, a job that DND's own website states that one has to be a Canadian Citizen to obtain and for which the Minister had to provide a waiver.

To reply to the above question, let me reply with one of my own. What would be the solution if the TFW pilot avenue was not possible ? Would the RCAF simply do without or would a made in Canada solution be found and implemented ?

No one replied to my question: How many RCAF pilots are flying desks these days ? If we cut a bit on the desk squadrons, would that not liberate a few qualified and experienced pilots to fly aircraft ?

Every one of the aircraft operator that apply for TFW pilot can argue for hours about why his case is special and why his application for TFW pilots should be accepted. The end result is that in the last 12 months, various Canadian aircraft operators, including the RCAF, imported several hundred TFW pilots into Canada for flying everything from the Cessna 172 to the Boeing C-17.

Where does one draw the line ?

Every case is special and justified according to the applicants.

[AuxBatOn]

Gilles,

Ground positions are a requirement. You can't put a navigator in charge of sections of the fighter procurement shop. It's part if being a military pilot.

Regarding the citizenship issue, read this: http://www.arbabi.ca/web/articles/EN/Fr ... -%20EN.pdf

"Morg" is a good friend of mine.

For the love of god, stop arguing about something you have no clue about.

[Posthumane]

I did reply about the Citizenship issue. They will perhaps one day become Canadian citizens when they become eligible. For now their Immigration status in Canada is that of a Foreigner with a Work Permit issued by Immigration Canada. The same status that the Sunwing TFW have. Exactly. But they are also Commissioned Officers of the RCAF, a job that DND's own website states that one has to be a Canadian Citizen to obtain and for which the Minister had to provide a waiver.

The difference is that when they become commissioned officers they are under contract such that they HAVE to get a citizenship within a certain amount of time.

o reply to the above question, let me reply with one of my own. What would be the solution if the TFW pilot avenue was not possible ? Would the RCAF simply do without or would a made in Canada solution be found and implemented ?

If you don't have enough qualified experienced pilots to instruct and command then what happens is exactly what happened in previous decades - the training system slows down and you have less candidates graduating to wings and operational status. The result is that in a decade time you again have less qualified pilots to instruct and command and are again in the same situation. Nothing new here. Adding more experienced pilots and instructors allows for MORE canadian candidates to apply to the training system, not less. Anyway, you didn't actually answer my question but rather side stepped it.

No one replied to my question: How many RCAF pilots are flying desks these days ? If we cut a bit on the desk squadrons, would that not liberate a few qualified and experienced pilots to fly aircraft ?

I don't know the numbers but it's not relevant. If you take officers out of staff/leadership positions to put them into flight line duties then you have to replace those staff officers with somebody qualified to do that job as well. When you say "flying a desk" you may be envisioning photocopying and making coffee but the positions filled by senior officers do in fact require senior (i.e. experienced) officers.

So, once again, please answer the question: who would you hire instead of the people you are against hiring? Who's job is this actually taking away?

It seems you've become so ingrained in your TFW battle that every case now seems unjustified to you and having a Canadian(tm) logo on your workers becomes more important than actually having an effective program. I guess when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Here is an example you military guys should be able to appreciate. This helicopter outfit called Phoenix Heli-Flight just put up a help wanted ad for a helicopter pilot. I took one look at the ad and identified it as nothing more than a required ESDC prerequisite for an LMO application for a foreign pilot. The ad was for a Eurocopter 135 rated pilot with tons of twin-engine IFR time and night vision goggle experience. It was to start a Helicopter Medivac operation with NVG capability. It probably paid upwards of $100K based on a similar LMO application the same outfit filed in 2013.

The chief pilot readily admitted that he intended to import a foreign pilot for that position because no one in Canada has those qualifications. My argument is that no one in Canada with those qualifications may be rated on the EC135 but there are pilots with twin engine IFR skills and NVG experience in Canada, namely many ex RCAF Tactical Helicopter Pilots. They just need to be trained on the EC-135 which should be easy for a pilot with extensive experience on similar sized helicopters.

The Operator thinks his case is special and wants his application for a foreign pilot with those exact qualifications to be approved, rather than find a Made-in-Canada solution.........

Everyone thinks his case is special........

[AuxBatOn]

Again, tell us WHO should the RCAF hire to fill those Operational Training Instructor positions??

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Again, tell us WHO should the RCAF hire to fill those Operational Training Instructor positions??

This is the exact same question every aircraft Operator asks me when I contest their "special and unique" needs for TFW pilots.

I don't work for DND. Hire an auditor who will analyse your problems and come up with a Made-in-Canada solution. I won't mind if the auditor is a TFW. There are probably no such qualifications at DND.

(And by the way, I went through those RCAF LMO applications one by one. They are not all for instructors)

[AuxBatOn]

Gilles, don't you think that other options were looked at? Stop thinking everybody acts in bad faith...

[Gilles Hudicourt]

75 Aircraft Operators, including the RCAF filed applications for LMOs for hundreds foreign pilots from Jan 1 to Oct 26 2013. Everyone's case is fully justified in their own eyes, and everyone claims there are no made-in-Canada solutions to their particular and unique problem.

Having recourse to TFW pilots should be the exception, not the rule. Several hundred pilots in a single year is no exception. Sorry RCAF, but the timing could not have been worse.

[AuxBatOn]

Gilles,

Given that we hired 140 pilots off canadian streets and 19 out of foreign militaries, it is the exception. We are at low qualified manning levels and need a solution now. Training a pilot to the experience level we need takes the better part of a decade. Hiring a forein qualified pilot takes a matter of weeks.

Experience levels in the front line units is going to be critical very soon if nothing is done.

[Posthumane]

Sure, everybody thinks their case is special. Doesn't mean that none of them are. Just because Sunwing and a bunch of other operators are abusing the system does not mean that automatically every use of foreign workers is an abuse of the system. So far I haven't heard of one qualified person saying they didn't get hired on by the RCAF because another experienced airforce officer got hired. If no jobs are being taken away, then what exactly is the advantage of a "made in Canada" solution? The only result that I could see of not getting these people is there would simply be less experienced people in the airforce.

Btw, even though not every applicant hired was for a training position, trainers come from operational squadrons too. So if you have someone experienced go straight to an operational squadron that does free up someone else (someone made in Canada) from that squadron to help with instructional duties as well.

PS: RCAF is not an airline. Saying that X number of operators, including RCAF, did this or that is irrelevant. You are comparing apples to oranges.

[Moose47]

G'day

The use of foreign military pilots, albeit Commonwealth, has been going on since the latter 1940's. Many immigrated to Canada and were immediately enrolled in the R.C.A.F.

The Royal Australian Air Force came to our Wing a few years ago looking for Air Weapons Controllers and CF-18 pilots. A couple of our guys made the move there. The R.A.A.F. also was the recipient of a large number of R.N.Z.A.F. flight pilots when the Prime Minister of New Zealand made the decision to get rid of fighters because she said they were to geographically remote for anyone to attack them. Foolish bitch!

I do not have any issues with recruiting foreign pilots to bridge the gap until we have sufficient numbers of Canadian trained pilots. These people come with loads of experience, so why not take advantage of it.

The article fails to mention my friend who up a few short years ago was flying MiG 21's in Romania. He will now be flying Hercs after his course.

Anyhow, to me the bottom line is, that this is a non-issue.

Cheers...Chris

[Gilles Hudicourt]

PS: RCAF is not an airline. Saying that X number of operators, including RCAF, did this or that is irrelevant. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Replace "RCAF" with "Helicopters" and a Helicopter operator I was criticizing for their use of TFW told me the exact same thing.

[B208]

Again, tell us WHO should the RCAF hire to fill those Operational Training Instructor positions??

This is the exact same question every aircraft Operator asks me when I contest their "special and unique" needs for TFW pilots.

Gilles, please answer the question. What is the made in Canada solution when you require an aircraft commander who has years of expience flying heavies, (C17- CC130J), into places where people are trying to shoot them down?

Also, WRT your reference to pilots flying desks in the RCAF. I don't think you quite understand the way the Air Force works. Pilots run the Air Force. It is not like any airline you have ever worked at. Most key management positions in the organization are occupied by pilots. Planning a humanitarian airlift into Haiti can not be left to some guy off the street. Planning the enforcement of a no fly zone can't be delegated to an accountant. Writing the requirements for a new SAR aircraft can't be delegated to an office manager. In a nut shell; Airline pilots are minions. They are not expected to deliver anything more that a safe flight from point A to point B. RCAF pilots are leaders; getting an aircraft safely from point A to point B is the least of the demands placed on them. The flying an RCAF pilot does in his early career gives him part of the foundation knowledge that he will need to go on and lead the organization. To put it in simple terms, those experienced guys are at desks because we need experienced guys at those desks.

Gilles, I appreciate what you are trying to do here. I spent some time on the civi side of aviation and I know how oleaginous some operators are. I applaude you and I thank you for your efforts to put Sunwing's feet to the fire. However, I can tell you that the RCAF is not Sunwing. The guys we recruited, (and are by no means temporary), fill a gap that can't be filled with Canadians, (unless we decide to conscript every retired RCAF pilot under the age of 60 back into the RCAF). You are speaking on matters about which you are not an expert. You are making yourself look bad in the eyes of people who are experts. I realize that last statement may seem confrontational; it is not meant to be. It is just a simple statement of fact. There is a reason I don't comment on the interal workings of Ornge or Air Canada; I've never been in those companies and I am ignorant of their needs and circumstances.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The Bill Good Show on CKNW in Vancouver this morning.

https://soundcloud.com/cknwnewstalk980/ ... ed-june-25

[DonutHole]

Where did the reply from the guy out of air mobility go? That post was made by a guy who is in the forces who agreed with gilles. His reply was well thought out and countered the position of the fighter guys here, it should not have gone bye bye and it's very disappointing that it did.

[iflyforpie]

The only thing I agree with is that this isn't something that the RCAF should have to do in the first place. But years of budget cuts and a lucrative private job sector have stripped the Forces of experienced personnel.

In a way... civilian TFWs will actually help the situation, as I would imagine more pilots would want to stay with a secure Forces job rather than take their chances in an increasingly globalized and marginalized industry.

Right now... the only way the RCAF can be shored up is by hiring foreign pilots with the required experience. Maybe, if there aren't further short-sighted cuts... the RCAF can be self-sufficient again in a few decades.