" I've been Rouged " Brilliant marketing!

[TheStig]

At the end of the day the only thing that counts in my personal opinion is that Air Canada is downgrading the quality of the product and to add insult to injury they are not downgrading the price in equal measure to me....

Once again, why should Air Canada provide a better service if customers weren't willing to pay a premium for it? With mainline, AC was providing a better product and was still forced to price match its competitors because that is how customers on these markets shop. The quality had to drop, because the price couldn't go up. Air Canada isn't forcing this product upon travellers, it's giving them exactly what they've proven they want to buy.

[Genetk44]

At the end of the day the only thing that counts in my personal opinion is that Air Canada is downgrading the quality of the product and to add insult to injury they are not downgrading the price in equal measure to me....

Once again, why should Air Canada provide a better service if customers weren't willing to pay a premium for it? With mainline, AC was providing a better product and was still forced to price match its competitors because that is how customers on these markets shop. The quality had to drop, because the price couldn't go up. Air Canada isn't forcing this product upon travellers, it's giving them exactly what they've proven they want to buy.

Quite right...and Rouge isn't the product for me...so me and my wallet will be walking to other airlines.
I'm not averse to paying premium $s for premium service....but I'm not being offered the chance on Rouge. And please don't say "Premium Rouge", thats just regular economy with a different name, especially on the 319s.

[TheStig]

[
Quite right...and Rouge isn't the product for me...so me and my wallet will be walking to other airlines.
I'm not averse to paying premium $s for premium service....but I'm not being offered the chance on Rouge. And please don't say "Premium Rouge", thats just regular economy with a different name, especially on the 319s.

Well, I don't disagree with your assessment and there are lots of employees that agree with you, who are very concerned about snubbing our 'high yield' customer base. Aside from the obvious wage erosion, rouge is tough for employees who enjoy catering to business travellers and offering a premium product, to swallow as well. Personally, I wish everyone could be provided with the AC Jetz product…despite the lack of onboard entertainment. I was simply trying to provide the business rational (from what I've been told, it wasn't my idea) behind the rouge product to inform the readers of this forum that are upset about what is being offered.

[Old fella]

Now that Rouge has been around for a year, it would be interesting to see what the ‘mainline” fares were on those routes now served by Rouge that bills itself LCC or leisure. Back to my original point in that people equate LCC/Leisure as having discounted fares. If such isn’t the case and combined with inferior service in the judgement of the fare paying public, then word is out and wallets are going elsewhere.
Perhaps the intent of Rouge is not the general public but internally at Air Canada in itself in that they (AC) wish to pay less and get more from those employees being an LCC.
Who knows?

[mbav8r]

Genetk44, it seems that you're missing the point. If you are now voting with your wallet, the odds are you will still end up on Rouge!
Prior to Rouge, the majority of people were NOT willing to pay what it cost for the AC product, yourself excluded, apparently.
Prior to Rouge, if you searched on line for airfare, most of the time you would find the price for any given flight would be within pennies, I've done this many times. Within pennies for a premium product no one was willing to pay for. How do you expect an airline to run when no one will pay what it cost to operate?
Now with Rouge, the product is more on par with the competition and because the price hasn't gone down you're all complaining.
Encore was supposed to change the landscape but ask the good people of Grande Prairie and they'll tell you, the price hasn't change since Encore took over! Is the product the same?
I've been on the competition many times, and with the new premium economy seating, you know with the extra legroom while everyone behind of row 4 is feeling crammed in, I've seen row 1-4 wide open or had employees seated there, while the back was full, I guess most people just want to ride cheap.
They even offer it for a 45.00 charge as part of the announcements and not once have I seen someone put their hand up, even the middle row would rather just suck it up. Now I'm sure they sell some of those but I just telling what I've seen and further illustrates the point, the MAJORITY aren't willing to pay a premium for a premium product.

[mbav8r]

Old fella, the point is not to bring the price down, it is to bring cost down, that simple.
WJ had a 15% cost advantage and over the years that has eroded to somewhere in the 7% range! now with Rouge in the mix, I wouldn't doubt if the cost differential is more like 4-5%
AC was losing money trying to compete, now they can match fares and actually make a little money doing it! What a concept!

[confuzed]

Well at least Rouge isn't FLOODING the market by selling more vacations then they can offer with a standard fleet; Sunwing sells more then they can handle with a set fleet size and the result is wet leasing foreign hulls and employing foreign pilots for the dry leased seasonal hulls.

Who is doing more damage again?

[Genetk44]

Genetk44, it seems that you're missing the point. If you are now voting with your wallet, the odds are you will still end up on Rouge!
Prior to Rouge, the majority of people were NOT willing to pay what it cost for the AC product, yourself excluded, apparently.
Prior to Rouge, if you searched on line for airfare, most of the time you would find the price for any given flight would be within pennies, I've done this many times. Within pennies for a premium product no one was willing to pay for. How do you expect an airline to run when no one will pay what it cost to operate?
Now with Rouge, the product is more on par with the competition and because the price hasn't gone down you're all complaining.
Encore was supposed to change the landscape but ask the good people of Grande Prairie and they'll tell you, the price hasn't change since Encore took over! Is the product the same?
I've been on the competition many times, and with the new premium economy seating, you know with the extra legroom while everyone behind of row 4 is feeling crammed in, I've seen row 1-4 wide open or had employees seated there, while the back was full, I guess most people just want to ride cheap.
They even offer it for a 45.00 charge as part of the announcements and not once have I seen someone put their hand up, even the middle row would rather just suck it up. Now I'm sure they sell some of those but I just telling what I've seen and further illustrates the point, the MAJORITY aren't willing to pay a premium for a premium product.

I'm not missing the point, from my perspective.When I say that I'll vote with my wallet it just means that somebody else( a US airline in the majority of cases) will get my money because they still offer a better service than Rouge, especially as far as seating is concerned....or I'll change my routeing and avoid YYZ for changes. I used to be willing to tolerate the inconvenience and lousy timing of having to transit through YYZ in return for the quality of product AC mainline J class offered.....however now with the downgradeing of that product the inconvenience of transit through YYZ is not worth it to me. To get to the destinations I need to fly to I can, if direct non-Rouge flights are not available, transit through a variety of US airports and or use US airlines. Either way the Canadian economy looses my small contribution to it.

I get AC wants or needs to lower costs....but on the A319 they could have kept the old style J class seats and pitch and just reduced the number by 50% and in economy gone with the new slimline seats and instead of reduceing the pitch to 29 inches just reduce it to 31. That still would have increased the pax capacity and gained a weight savings over the standard AC mainline A319 and they probably would not have gotten quite as savaged in the forums and media. I think they just got too greedy.

[YYCDavid]

You know it's funny they pride themselves on some outdated skytrax review but at the end of the day I would rate them a 2 star airline. You can't even get res on the phone unless you want to hold for 45min-3 hours. Total embarrassment as a national airline.

[FL410]

You know it's funny they pride themselves on some outdated skytrax review but at the end of the day I would rate them a 2 star airline. You can't even get res on the phone unless you want to hold for 45min-3 hours. Total embarrassment as a national airline.

The funny thing is, while AC always promoted the mainline Skytrax rating, the Rouge rating is low enough that it doesn't even have a star assigned.

http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/air_canrge.htm

[JBI]

We took Rouge from YVR to LAX at the beginning of the month for a wedding. I want to be a big Rouge supporter. However, the seat back pocket has a metal wire/stick that runs along the top of the pocket. I'm not that tall and it still dug into my knees for most of the flight.

Overall, the service was alright. It was nice to have friendly, enthusiastic flight attendants, but the inflight service wasn't exactly efficient. Luckily it was a 2.5 hour flight or else the folks at the back of the plane wouldn't have gotten any drinks. It's one thing to be friendly, it's another to have a full conversation with every person you give a diet coke to. I'm sure things will get more efficient as the flight attendants get a little more experience.

I actually really enjoyed the inflight entertainment system - we watched the first two episodes of Fresh Prince of Belair - including the one with the extended intro http://youtu.be/CZ1NA7Mgzgw

On the way back, the middle seat wasn't taken, so we had more room and it was a very enjoyable flight. Overall, the experience wasn't bad except for the metal wire digging into my knee. Unfortunately, this was extremely uncomfortable and basically made me not want to fly in that type of seat again. So for our Christmas trip to Hawaii, we booked WestJet.

Not opposed to flying Rouge, but I'll bring the volleyball knee pads that I use when playing goal in ball hockey (not kidding)

[Captain Kangaroo]

On the way back, the middle seat wasn't taken, so we had more room and it was a very enjoyable flight. Overall, the experience wasn't bad except for the metal wire digging into my knee. Unfortunately, this was extremely uncomfortable and basically made me not want to fly in that type of seat again. So for our Christmas trip to Hawaii, we booked WestJet.

Not opposed to flying Rouge, but I'll bring the volleyball knee pads that I use when playing goal in ball hockey (not kidding)

I hope you realize that WestJet recently crammed their seats together so you are likely to have even less leg room than Rouge.

I flew WestJet from YYZ to YYC a few months ago. (My normal travel girl was on vacation and the new girl wasn't aware of my preference for AC). NEVER AGAIN! I'm not a huge guy at 6'0" but the leg room was almost non existent and when the gentlemen in the seat in front of me put his seat in the recline position, I couldn't even get my tray table down.

With all the Encore crap, targeting "Industry Standard less 10%" pay scales, cramming the seats together on mainline and then charging a premium for the rows that still maintain the original spacing... The polish has definitely come off the WestJet turd!

I will choose AC every time!

[Genetk44]

On the way back, the middle seat wasn't taken, so we had more room and it was a very enjoyable flight. Overall, the experience wasn't bad except for the metal wire digging into my knee. Unfortunately, this was extremely uncomfortable and basically made me not want to fly in that type of seat again. So for our Christmas trip to Hawaii, we booked WestJet.

Not opposed to flying Rouge, but I'll bring the volleyball knee pads that I use when playing goal in ball hockey (not kidding)

I hope you realize that WestJet recently crammed their seats together so you are likely to have even less leg room than Rouge.

I flew WestJet from YYZ to YYC a few months ago. (My normal travel girl was on vacation and the new girl wasn't aware of my preference for AC). NEVER AGAIN! I'm not a huge guy at 6'0" but the leg room was almost non existent and when the gentlemen in the seat in front of me put his seat in the recline position, I couldn't even get my tray table down.

With all the Encore crap, targeting "Industry Standard less 10%" pay scales, cramming the seats together on mainline and then charging a premium for the rows that still maintain the original spacing... The polish has definitely come off the WestJet turd!

I will choose AC every time!

Captain...assumeing you were in Y on a 737..on the Westjet flight...then you actually got 2-3 inches more legroom on your flight than you would have gotten on a Rouge A319.
Remember...Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge are two different animals.

[TheStig]

Captain...assumeing you were in Y on a 737..on the Westjet flight...then you actually got 2-3 inches more legroom on your flight than you would have gotten on a Rouge A319.
Remember...Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge are two different animals.

That's not true. It might be 1".

http://business.financialpost.com/2013/ ... y-knowing/

"WestJet will be shrinking the pitch in its economy seats on its 737s to between 31” and 32”, from an average of about 34”, in order to allow for a 36” pitch in premium economy. This will allow it to keep the same number of seats on the smaller 737s, and actually add eight more seats on the larger versions."


"Air Canada will also introduce premium economy section on five new Boeing 777s that will begin arriving this summer.

The pitch in economy on those planes will shrink an inch to 31 inches and the width of the seats will also contract to 17 inches – pretty much in line with WestJet and the broader industry – from 18 inches today."

As for rouge.

That’s also why Air Canada has launched its new low-cost carrier, rouge, which will have higher-density seating than its mainline 767s and A319s, and smaller pitches between 29 inches and 31 inches, in line with its low-cost rivals like Sunwing Airlines, making it more competitive from a cost perspective.

In summary.

"As it stands, however, both Air Canada and WestJet’s new economy sections with a 31-inch pitch and roughly 17 inches in width is in line with the industry average.

Because of this, Walter Spracklin, RBC Capital Market analyst, said he sees little downside in the shrinking of the economy seats to allow for the addition of the premium economy section for either Air Canada or WestJet.

“Given that both of them are doing this with comparable pitch, it’s very unlikely that you’re going to see any market share gains one way or the other,” he said.

“We’ve seen it introduced in the U.S. with no significant fallout that we’ve been able to see from going to a premium economy with a lot more dense economy cabin,” he said. “The upside is significant.”

[Genetk44]

Sorry TheStig it is true, your article dates back to 2013.. AC management confirms that Rouge 319 Economy seat pitch is 29 inches
WS 737 Economy seat pitch is 31-32 inches
By normal math thats a 2-3 inch difference not 1inch.

[TheStig]

Genetk, my you're right. I did a little more research and found that WJ is offering 31" and rouge is offering 29' on the A319 and 30' on the B767.

[Genetk44]

I'd be interested to know were you get the 30 inch number for the Westjet 737.....the 5 different sources I checked all say the Westjet 737 Y is 31-32 inches

[JBI]

For me the seat pitch isn't so much of the issue - I've flown on easyJet in Europe a few times and while I wouldn't say it was spacious, it wasn't bad. It's just metal rod in the seat pocket of Rouge's 319 that was digging into my knees that was the problem. Perhaps it's different on the 767s, but unfortunately we weren't willing to take that chance on a 5+ hour flight.

[Genetk44]

The Rouge 767 has more legroom. That metal rod digging into your knees is a direct result of seat-pitch....and your height. I'm 6ft3....I literally cannot fit into the Rouge 29 inch pitch economy seat.

[mbav8r]

Genetk, you realize you are about 5 inches taller than the average male. I'm also 6'3 and would love to have a small car that's good on gas and cheap to buy, however I can't fit in them so I buy bigger more expensive vehicles that I fit in.
We all get it, you're used to the better product but the majority, m a j o r i t y of average sized people were NOT willing to pay what it cost, so what to do, keep running a loss so the 6'3" travellers don't have to pay a premium for more room. You're not running a business with that philosophy are you?

[JBI]

The Rouge 767 has more legroom. That metal rod digging into your knees is a direct result of seat-pitch....and your height. I'm 6ft3....I literally cannot fit into the Rouge 29 inch pitch economy seat.

I'm only 5'9" and the rod was digging into my knees. I haven't had that problem with WestJet or EasyJet. If I recall correctly, EasyJet's pockets just have mesh and an elastic cord, not a metal rod


http://www.ausbt.com.au/photos/view/siz ... review.JPG --> click if the photo doesn't show up.

Whereas you can see in this picture that the top of the Rouge seat pocket has a more sturdy metal rod (I'm sure there's a joke in there somewhere)



http://www.airlinereporter.com/wp-conte ... C02394.jpg


Such a small difference had a big impact on how comfortable the seats were.

[Genetk44]

Genetk, you realize you are about 5 inches taller than the average male. I'm also 6'3 and would love to have a small car that's good on gas and cheap to buy, however I can't fit in them so I buy bigger more expensive vehicles that I fit in.
We all get it, you're used to the better product but the majority, m a j o r i t y of average sized people were NOT willing to pay what it cost, so what to do, keep running a loss so the 6'3" travellers don't have to pay a premium for more room. You're not running a business with that philosophy are you?

mbav8r....My point in this particular thread was to address Captain Kangaroos assertion that West Jet had worse seat pitch/ legroom than Rouges seat pitch legroom, which I did. And to adress Stigs numbers vis-a-vis West Jet and Rouge seat pitch.

I'm not ashamed that I prefer and want a better product...and I'm more than willing to pay for it, I have always done so when required. I'm not suggesting that Air Canada should run at a loss..but 29 inch seat pitch is greed pure and simple as far as I am concerned and as crazy as it might sound the 2 inch increase to a 31 inch seat pitch would have saved Air Canada a lot of bad press,ill will and still increase their numbers quite nicely over mainlines 31-35 inch seat- pitch.

Quite frankly, as a customer and not being a shareholder or investor in AirCanada or Rouge, I don't care what their reasons,rationale or spin is for why they made the decisions they did....I'm only interested in the quality and value of the product I buy with my money....and Rouge , especially Rouge economy holds zero value for me.

[AirMail]

Take all the crap out of the seat pocket, problem solved.