COPA Reform

[Gord001]

I would like to start a new thread to discuss suggestions for solving COPA problems into the future!!!

[CFR]

To solve the problems you need to a) Get enough interest from enough people to do so and b) build a war chest, because it ain't gonna be easy and it ain't gonna be cheap!

[fleet16b]

I would like to start a new thread to discuss suggestions for solving COPA problems into the future!!!

Same questions I asked you on the other thread.

What level of involvement do you have with COPA ?
Do you hold a position either Nationally or within your Chapter ?

[PilotDAR]

What would this reformed organization do? What is the need to be filled in today's world?

In days of old, COPA was a good, if not the best source of GA information in Canada for most aviators - That is certainly not the case now.

Insurance? Maybe, but that would be a tall order for a "new" reformed team.

Lobbying to TC to fight for the interests of Canadian GA (my hot button topic)? The members must enable this, and assure that the leadership knows and represent their interests. This takes membership effort.

Are there enough Canadian aviators who want or need this?

[jeta1]

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[Gord001]

I would like to start a new thread to discuss suggestions for solving COPA problems into the future!!!

Same questions I asked you on the other thread.

What level of involvement do you have with COPA ?
Do you hold a position either Nationally or within your Chapter ?

I emailed you those answers.
Gord

[Colonel Sanders]

IMHO: COPA needs a complete change
of management. Every single officer needs
to go.

Then, COPA needs to make it clear to it's
membership WHAT it's going to do, and
HOW it's going to do it, with complete
transparency and accountability to it's
members, including opening it's books
to show it's members how it spends their
money. Regular external audits are essential.

I am a member of AOPA, and their effectiveness
at lobbying on behalf of GA is jaw-dropping.

[CFR]

IMHO: COPA needs a complete change
of management. Every single officer needs
to go.

Then, COPA needs to make it clear to it's
membership WHAT it's going to do, and
HOW it's going to do it, with complete
transparency and accountability to it's
members, including opening it's books
to show it's members how it spends their
money. Regular external audits are essential.

I am a member of AOPA, and their effectiveness
at lobbying on behalf of GA is jaw-dropping.

What he said
AOPA member as well and loving it.

[I_Drive_Planes]

IMHO: COPA needs a complete change
of management. Every single officer needs
to go.

Then, COPA needs to make it clear to it's
membership WHAT it's going to do, and
HOW it's going to do it, with complete
transparency and accountability to it's
members, including opening it's books
to show it's members how it spends their
money. Regular external audits are essential.

I am a member of AOPA, and their effectiveness
at lobbying on behalf of GA is jaw-dropping.

What he said
AOPA member as well and loving it.

Any new COPA directors and staff should have to go and do an internship with the AOPA. The differences are staggering. This is plainly obvious as soon as you pick up each organization's respective magazine and painfully obvious when you open up that magazine and start reading. You won't find any stories about Uncle Leroy who flew his 172 on the trip of a lifetime and crossed 3 whole provinces (in 1973) or Aunt June who raised $137.07 with her fly in bake sale and quilting bee (insert photo of Aunt June proudly presenting the cheque to Kevin Psutka). The general interest aviation stuff in the AOPA magazine is first rate, and they detail the large amount of lobbying that they do. And they actually lobby! At the local, state and federal level, they lobby for the cause of general aviation and are quite successful at it. They know how the game is played, and they know that lobbying consists of a hell of a lot more than sending a strongly worded letter.

Dear Minister Raitt,

Uncle Leroy, Aunt June and the rest of COPA are not very happy about the latest legislation and we demand that you change it. If you don't change it we will go from not very happy to quite angry. Aunt June will then have to hold another bake sale and I will be forced to write another letter! Know that this is not an idle threat.

Lots of love,

Kevin P.

I know that COPA will never be AOPA due to the usual excuses when it comes to comparing anything here to anything in the USA (distance, low population, cold winters, broken down skidoos etc.) but they could be doing a whole lot better than they are. The difference that I see is that AOPA is run as a business with a high degree of professionalism, and COPA is a club mostly run by volunteers who are doing their best. COPA needs to take a more businesslike approach, and the only way to make that leap is to do exactly what the Colonel said and purge the whole lot of directors and management.

[PilotDAR]

It is primarily my massive disappointment in witnessing first hand, the opposite of lobbying by COPA which cause me to give up on them. On three separate occasions, I sat in the same TC meeting in Ottawa (more than a decade ago) and saw zero feedback, comment, objection, or threat of more bake sales, in response to PROPOSED TC regulatory change. I specifically said to the COPA person attending that they needed to lobby TC on behalf of COPA members, to object to the proposed regulation, to at least change implementation, and write articles so the members would know that they should object to TC. Nothing but silence from COPA - to TC and to the members.

In two cases, TC staff later told me that my written objection to the proposed change was the ONLY objection they received. So, the regulatory change was made. Requirements for noise compliance were introduced, so if you would like to change a prop, or make other changes which could affect change, the cost could be thousands more than before, or the answer might just be "no". If you would like to carry external loads, the approval which is now required could be rather costly.

In each case, I offered to work directly with COPA, as I had in previous times, to help steer those changes to be tolerable to GA. COPA did not enable my efforts, so my letters to TC were simply my own. As my wife is a super baker, and I have crossed all provinces in a Cessna, I no longer felt I needed COPA. Only Doug Ronan seemed to care, but he could not affect change within COPA either....

[Colonel Sanders]

PD: Around here, people have suspected for
years that the "soft glove" treatment that COPA
has for TC on these sorts of issues, is a result
of a certain person (who likes to pose as a former
ex-mil pilot) currying favour for a juicy appointment
to the Tribunal, or TSB or some other plum reward
appointment.

[Pop n Fresh]

Sounds to me like COPA is a good place for a stick up!

[Tom H]

Seems this thread is starting from the wrong point of view in my opinion.

It is not how COPA needs to reform...

It is about what the members want COPA to be.

So gang...what do you want COPA to be and do?

T

[Pop n Fresh]

My concern and I realize my writing here has become annoying and lacking information relevant to discussion...

When some have attempted to do something the board did not want to do, they were either removed from the organization or told their actions will be countered.

How can any change occur?

I would like a supportive organization where pilots would gather and help/support each other in the pursuit of flying. Canada seems to make that difficult.

[fleet16b]

I would like to start a new thread to discuss suggestions for solving COPA problems into the future!!!

Same questions I asked you on the other thread.

What level of involvement do you have with COPA ?
Do you hold a position either Nationally or within your Chapter ?

I emailed you those answers.
Gord

I don't think you did
No reply received from you on these questions

[howard40]

Simply put not enough canadian general aviation types use their planes regularly for business, as is done so often in the states. These business types know business, have business , and use their aircraft in support of said business. They fight hard to keep the airplane useful to them.
While I am glad there are loads of weekend warriors in Canada, the number of hours they fly,and the places they fly, rarely need copa support. When I first learned to fly, in 1980, you would meet 3 or 4 planes on a saturday night, at city centre flying in for a walk around the city etc. I flew in a few saturdays ago, there was exactly one fly in, and an american Aztec sitting on the ramp. Ghost town. There also used to be 10 in the circuit learing to fly at ytz. No more.
I have long complained that copa is doing nothing to keep places like YTZ available to ga. Quebec City with its 80 dollar overnights will keep the ramps empty. COPA should be on the warpath about that one. we will try to pay our share, but it has to be reasonable. 80 is off the chart.
Folks need to fly more, and there needs to be more of them flying. COPA needs to wake up , before we have the european model of GA flying , rather than the american one.

[kamikaze]

Agreed with the above re: lobbying.

They should be doing 2 things: lobbying, and promotion. In many ways those two come hand in hand anyways.

Talk to MPs and MPPs, TC, NavCanada, etc. Promote the role Ga plays in the country/province/etc.

In my 6 years in COPA, I've NEVER heard a word of anything of the sort happening. I DO hear a lot of "we tried, we failed", mostly related to TC and local airports.

There's been talk about the lack of a national airport strategy, but again, TC seems to be their only target?

I mean in country with such low population density and a rich aerospace history, the attraction and usefulness of a vibrant GA sector shouldn't be that hard to sell ...

[AirFrame]

Things COPA should be working harder on, that I continually hear members here on the west coast complain about:

1. The fuel tax. Yes, the one that was levvied to help pay for the air navigation system and services. The one that isn't given to NavCanada, and now just goes into "general revenue" to pay for anything the Government wants to.

2. Digital charts. I'm not talking subscription-based proprietary software like Foreflight. I'm saying post up PDF copies of each chart for download.

3. NavCanada "services". Lobby with NavCanada to stop the control creep that's happening near major centers, where they push to lower the bottoms of controlled airspace to the ground and expand controlled area out 50 miles in every direction. I don't need to be on flight following to fly for a $100 hamburger. I *do* need to be able to climb to a safe altitude to cross water, and not hear "Class C airspace is restricted" on every sunny weekend.

4. ELT replacement. Work with TC and industry to develop a real replacement for the 121.5 MHz ELT's. One that's affordable, and has a better chance of working than the 406 MHz system. A SPOT with a G-switch would be the cat's *ss.

5. Small airport closures. COPA worked diligently and sucessfully to fight to keep Banff and Jasper open. They supported financially the successful fight to keep Delta Heritage Airpark open as well. They need to keep it up. It would be great if they could do something to create a national airport plan, with TC's buy-in and active support. But I fear that ship may have already sailed.

6. Stop the fragmentation. TC has divested itself of Air Navigation services, and Amateur-Built aircraft inspections (mostly). The College of Professional Pilots is realizing that if they want to be a self-governing body for pilots in Canada, that they're going to have to take all of it to get there, right down to student pilots and ultralights. Don't think Transport isn't considering this as an option to divest itself of another division. It might not be the College that gets it, but it could happen. COPA should be front and center representing GA and ensuring we don't end up with another NavCanada gong show.

[Liquid Charlie]

COPA should be front and center representing GA and ensuring we don't end up with another NavCanada gong show

as it does in the

Not being a copa member since copa has nothing to offer me and looking at it from the outside looking in it seems that copa is suffering from canadianitis -- too small to be very effective and given the way canada operates at a government level lobbying means very little as it does with aopa -- copa needs more clout -- maybe a merge with aopa or expand your interests so you will attract a larger pilot base -- meaning -- give me as a career pilot who doesn't own or rent or involved with general aviation a reason to join -- and yes "the good old boys" at the top likely are very resistant to change but lets face it copa has fizzled -- sure there are what some perceive as worthy causes but they are few and no real war chest to make a difference -- maybe the college and copa should merge but copa as do most unions and associations are only as good s it's members and do fall into the trap of resistance to change -- get the whole canadian pilot group interested -- which increases you war chest and maybe gets you a seat on carac where you lobby for all canadian pilots -- time to put the "and" back in copa -- then I certainly would join

[kamikaze]

Fuel Tax: Not going to happen, focus on where you have a chance of achieving something! Details: Nothing in law requires said fuel tax to be spent on anything in particular. There are other fuels taxed in a similar fashion, and it would be "unfair" to NOT tax aviation fuel, but tax all the others. Even when it is said that fuel taxes are spent on infrastructure, it's mostly some and mirrors.

Digital charts: Too much liability issues if you don't control the "end point", won't happen. Your ink jet runs out of cyan, your chart ends up missing some important feature, someone dies, somehow it's NavCan's fault (don't roll your eyes, you just know someone would try and sue). Sad state of liability related issues indeed, but it's the reality.

Agreed on 3, 4 and 5. I'll just say that a National strategy on airports would work best as a politically driven initiative. Don't ask TC, ask MPs, those with aerospace workers who vote for them, airports providing jobs in their district, etc...

[Shiny Side Up]

5. Small airport closures. COPA worked diligently and sucessfully to fight to keep Banff and Jasper open. They supported financially the successful fight to keep Delta Heritage Airpark open as well. They need to keep it up. It would be great if they could do something to create a national airport plan, with TC's buy-in and active support. But I fear that ship may have already sailed.

This is the number one thing that would get me to be interested in COPA. As of yet, I don't feel that they have warranted my dollar since I see very little action here, besides the Banff and Jasper work. There are lots of airports under fire in this country and there is a lot of silence from COPA on the matter. One of the biggest things that put me off of them as an organization is when I've found COPA members working against the GA larger interest in this regard. When you see a COPA flight petition to have an airport closed, something is wrong.

One of the things that I really like that AOPA does, is report on who in the government is in favour of aviation and who's against it. So members can effect change directly in the voting process. There is nothing of this sort of information out there in Canada, a who's who of their political stance for or against aviation.

[AirFrame]

Fuel Tax: Not going to happen, focus on where you have a chance of achieving something! Details: Nothing in law requires said fuel tax to be spent on anything in particular. There are other fuels taxed in a similar fashion, and it would be "unfair" to NOT tax aviation fuel, but tax all the others. Even when it is said that fuel taxes are spent on infrastructure, it's mostly some and mirrors.

I know this is likely a dead issue. It doesn't change the fact that a tax was added to pay for air navigation services, and not removed when the air navigation services were privatized and the private company started charging us directly. Double taxation!

Digital charts: Too much liability issues if you don't control the "end point", won't happen. Your ink jet runs out of cyan, your chart ends up missing some important feature, someone dies, somehow it's NavCan's fault (don't roll your eyes, you just know someone would try and sue). Sad state of liability related issues indeed, but it's the reality.

And yet, FltPlan Go now offers free Canadian charts and CFS to anyone with an iOS or Android device. Nobody wants to print their own charts, they want digital charts they can view on a screen. Anyone cheap enough to download a PDF chart and try to print part of it to navigate by probably doesnt' care if they miss that they're flying over someone's fur farm by accident.

[kamikaze]

Like I said, when you control the app, you control the end point, and you can control accuracy regarding the data display.

You specifically said NOT like Foreflight. FltPlan Go is more like Foreflight than not ... it's a service with an app, and the publishers control the product end-to-end.

Giving people PDFs, that's a whole other ball game, and a much riskier one from their perspective.

Both Foreflight and FltPlan got liability insurance in order to publish the Canadian products ... a requirement from NavCan last I heard ...

I agree that I would sure like to see the digital products showing up in more and more places, which seems to slowly be happening. But hoping for US-style publishing won't work, since here those are products of a private company, and not a government with open data policies. And heck even back when nav charts were done by NRCan for TC, there were no digital products for sale (even though they existed internally).

Compare NavCan to Jeppesen in terms of chart publishing, not the FAA, for something that's more apples-to-apples.

[fleet16b]

IMHO: COPA needs a complete change
of management. Every single officer needs
to go.

Then, COPA needs to make it clear to it's
membership WHAT it's going to do, and
HOW it's going to do it, with complete
transparency and accountability to it's
members, including opening it's books
to show it's members how it spends their
money. Regular external audits are essential.

I am a member of AOPA, and their effectiveness
at lobbying on behalf of GA is jaw-dropping.

+1

[jeta1]

.