Instructor Fell Asleep

[5x5]

Getting an instructor when he's at his best, is far less important than getting him when you want him after all. Its all part of that Walmart world we live in.

Not just this instance, but in general this is so true. There are many, many days when an instructor has to get in early for the students wanting to be done before work/school that day and then have unbooked time through mid-day. Then be expected to take the two or three students that want to have late day and evening lessons after work/school. Really doesn't make for the freshest, most focused instructor by day's end.

[Shiny Side Up]

I actually did an experiment a while ago, where we offered a discount on flight training (a whole $15/hour of the rental cost) if people booked flights at certain parts of the day to fill up the shcedule so instructors wouldn't have that dreaded morning and night booking routine they usually get. The schedule filled up.

So the idea that students can't change their schedule for their flight training just doesn't hold, they just won't do it for better flight training. They won't do it for a better instructor, they will do it to save money. Sort of sad in a way.

This was also borne out by the last survey on flight training AOPA did as well. Quality of flight training didn't even make the list when it considered student satisfaction with their training.

Our OP after all seems willing enough to have a sleeping instructor rather than consider changing his schedule to maybe get him at a better time.

I rest my case.

[theoscarpaco]

Our OP after all seems willing enough to have a sleeping instructor rather than consider changing his schedule to maybe get him at a better time.

I'm willing to have a sleeping instructor because this is a one man show and for a limited time, at that. My alternative is to wait to train until I get posted back down south, in about three or four years from now. I have been taking early timings when I can get them (weekends) and when I start two weeks of leave in the next month, you can bet I'll be there at the crack of dawn any time he's available. This isn't a case of me not shopping around for quality instruction or being too demanding of the instructor. As a matter of fact, he is trying to to fly four times per day to make it worth his while to be up here; 0800-1000, 1000-1200, 1300-1500, and 1700-1900 are the slots he's trying to fill every day. I am convinced this may be too much of a workload for this individual, especially since he's not really taking any time for himself or giving himself any days off. He may be under pressure from home base to fly every waking minute but I can't say that for sure, and I'm not implying that that's so.

Anyway, I came here for guidance because there is a lot of experience on this forum. Don't speculate about my character or motives without first asking me. And for that matter, CS, I'm new to aviation..not a "kid." I turn 18 next month.

Jokes

[Shiny Side Up]

Don't speculate about my character or motives without first asking me.

You signed on for that by posting on an internet forum. Sorry to hurt your feelings, but I'd rather hurt your feelings and get you thinking that you might be part of the problem creating your own hazards to your own health. Or at least if you don't care to think about them, then maybe one person in the sea of people possibly reading might change their mind on the matter, then to me all the hurt feelings has been worth it.

My alternative is to...

So you're saying you made a consious choice to stick with this? You know you have alternatives? You're not helping your case. What's the rush? There are a lot more than just one alternative, but its just a question of priorities.

I turn 18 next month.

You got lots of time, don't be in a rush to get yourself hurt.

[Chuck Finley]

This is unacceptable!!

I would have started a timer and deducted that from the bill at the end and made it clear with him that the next time something like that happened he was canned as my instructor!

You guys say you are professionals and pull shit like that...

And for those almost claiming this is nornal, give yoir head a shake, If you're too tired say no and go sleep. THAT IS YOUR JOB.

[theoscarpaco]

So you're saying you made a consious choice to stick with this? You know you have alternatives? You're not helping your case. What's the rush? There are a lot more than just one alternative, but its just a question of priorities.

Oh, gosh. My feelings are not hurt. I'm just saying that this isn't a case of this or that which was discussed above.

And, no, I haven't made a conscious decision to stick with this. The incident only happened yesterday. I am weighing options and deciding on a proper course of action and this thread is a part of that. But as you can imagine, I'd like to start flying and it can be hard to wait it out. What's your advice? I think I'll stick with the days I can get in early for now, and if he dozes off again I will put my training on hold until I get back down south with more options available to me.

[Shiny Side Up]

This is unacceptable!!

Maybe not to you, but to some customers, clearly it is. Something to think about.

[skypirate88]

I am not sure if they still have something like this, but the Brampton Flight Centre used to have duty limits for students and the instructors. I think it was something like 10 hours for students. This prevented the early morning flight, then a night cross country for example. Instructors were 12 hours from first flight of the day with extensions at the discretion of the CFI.

At first it was a little bit of a pain but once the summer came around it was nice to have a rule preventing the 7 am - midnight shifts.

[PositiveRate27]

It's not something to condone or allow to continue but like CS I've been there and done that. After 13 hours straight I was instructing a student under the hood. We were tracking a VOR radial and had a few miles to run straight and level. I just couldn't fight it any longer and dozed off. I'm confident it was only for a few seconds, but I'll never know! The longest day I worked as an instructor was 19 hours with basically only a long enough break to grab some chow and top off the coffee cup. As George W. Bush said, It's all part of the game when you're a young instructor and you're trying to put food on your family!

[Colonel Sanders]

The FARs state that no flight instructor can log
more than 8 hrs of dual given in an 24 hrs.

However, there are no such limit in Canada
for CAR 405/406.

As a young instructor, with less than 1000TT
and earning less that $10k/yr, it's pretty tough
to turn down revenue flights. People will tell
you that you have to make hay when the sun
shines. You certainly won't get much instructing
work in the winter in Canada!

As a young, seemingly invincible pilot, it's easy
enough to bite off more than you can chew. Most
of us have, and lived to tell the tale.

Hell, even old pilots make that mistake. Just
a few years ago, I did four dual trips in a Christen
Eagle (teaching landings - terrifying) and then
one acro trip in a Pitts, on a very hot summer
day. After those five flights under canopy, I
think I was sunburned and suffering from heat
exhaustion or dehydration or something at the
end of the day. I did not feel good.

I should have known better, but I didn't.

Like a teenaged girl, you have to learn to say
"no", even when it appears to be in your best
interest.

I note that what is significant is what we are
not hearing - from float pilots that fly non-stop
every day, all summer long, and other seasonal
pilots (eg rotary wing). I am sure they suffer
from serious fatigue after flying day after day
after day.

[Shiny Side Up]

I note that what is significant is what we are
not hearing - from float pilots that fly non-stop
every day, all summer long, and other seasonal
pilots (eg rotary wing). I am sure they suffer
from serious fatigue after flying day after day
after day.

That kind of work is different I find, you get tired in a different way. I think it has to do with the people. After all, when instructing is good, its awesome, but when its bad its terrible. Frequently when I'm off working with a plane, Ultimately I'm the one in control. I also know when work is done, and usually no one begrudges me grabbing a sandwich. What tires you out I find is more the being away, and hotel rooms and camp life get a bit old, the lack of a social interaction besides the same old ugly faces day in and out.

With instructing its the same old ugly faces, but you have to interact directly with them, and that often doesn't stop when you're on the ground, and often you can't control for how long. Students can be notoriously demanding of your time. Being a machine oriented person there's somewhat of a calming ritual when one is left to care for the thing, fueling, oiling, cleaning, which if you're instructing gets disrupted often by a hanger-on. It wears somewhat on your patientce, and that I find anymore is my limiting resourse I have to marshal.

[CpnCrunch]

Oh, gosh. My feelings are not hurt. I'm just saying that this isn't a case of this or that which was discussed above.

And, no, I haven't made a conscious decision to stick with this. The incident only happened yesterday. I am weighing options and deciding on a proper course of action and this thread is a part of that. But as you can imagine, I'd like to start flying and it can be hard to wait it out. What's your advice? I think I'll stick with the days I can get in early for now, and if he dozes off again I will put my training on hold until I get back down south with more options available to me.

Perhaps you should just talk to the instructor about it. Tell him that you don't think it's a good idea for him to be dozing off during your lesson, and ask him if he's getting enough sleep, or if his schedule is too much. It could be that he's up late at night partying, or managing his business or whatever. As long as you're reasonable and objective about how phrase it, he won't get pissed off (and if he does, perhaps that's a hint that you should find a new instructor).

Another option might be to take a few weeks and go do your PPL somewhere else.

PS, 18 year-olds are 'kids' to us 40-year olds. Heck even I'm probably a kid to half the people on this forum.

[theoscarpaco]

PS, 18 year-olds are 'kids' to us 40-year olds. Heck even I'm probably a kid to half the people on this forum.

I guess my joke flew under the radar. Never was a stand-up comic. I'm closer to 30.

[KnownIce]

I find it very hard to understand how this thread has went on so long for what is clearly an unsafe situation that has no reason to exist. Who was the PIC when your instructor was asleep? Who was utilizing their experience and judgement to keep you alive? If someone felt you were OK to safely conduct a flight on your own, with an (unconscious) passenger, you'd already have a license.

I don't mean this to be disrespectful to you at all, or call into question you own innate abilities, but there really is no justification for what happened and if your instructor isn't apologetic for what happened, and lacks insight into why this was inappropriate, I can't imagine trusting that person to teach me all the other judgement calls you need to learn to be a safe pilot beyond the comparatively easy textbook and physical aspects of flying.

If your instructor doesn't see it this way, I guess you have to decide how desperate you are to continue flight training at this time and what risks you are willing to take.

[Colonel Sanders]

I'm closer to 30

Wonderful. I've been flying for 40 years, and
I'm afraid you're a kid to guys my age, whom
you may reverentially refer to as "Grey Bush"

[B52]

I recall "a company" working me endlessly to the legal maximum and beyond with the bonafide letter from Transport Canada that allowed "a company" to just put all it's pilots into massive fatigue. Then there was another "night freight" company where we had a great chief pilot who told us to make sure that if any or both needed extra sleep to make sure that once we hit cruise to ensure the one most tired got some sleep first and then vice versa.

Then there was another company with a strict code of silence and with the auto-pilot on sitting in silence in the pre-dawn hours it was guaranteed to put both pilots at high risk of falling asleep.

That attitude is not a safe one. The safest policy is to encourage the pilot most fatigued to get some shut eye first. Often even a 20 min doze is enough to recharge the battery for another few hours. An hour or so can make a hell of a difference and if both pilots manage to get an hour each, that makes them both safer at the end of flight that could be a descent through icing severe icing conditions when all the alternates have gone down and the destination is just a touch better.

There are bunch of flying schools that have, an incredible resource of experienced instructors that are highly sought after. Some of them, don't need to instruct for the money or the hours, they already have both, its the smart students who learn about them and seek them out.

That's when you have to look further afield and be prepared to do some driving to get the right instructor who is available.

I can think of several schools where you can't get a booking for months with the well known experienced instructors who are not taking on any more new students because they can't handle the demand. Then there are schools run by experienced "managers" who go out of their way to choose the most experienced instructors they can find who can actually impart knowledge that's based on experience and not an incestuous training history where the only new hires are those trained by who also trained there etc.

[ReturningPPL]

I was just reading the issues the original poster had written. It is cases like this which made me choose a school where it is not "too busy" and not too big. It is some kind of "herd mentality" or bandwagon effect that causes a lot of us to flock towards places that are already too busy while we overlook the mom and pop shops.

[Chris M]

On one hand you're paying him for instruction, not to sleep. And as a new pilot an extra set of eyeballs in the cockpit is never a bad thing.

One the other, he's not paid very much and is probably burned out. Take it as a compliment to your flying that he can fall asleep with you at the controls. (Maybe. I know a fellow who drifts off while riding in a track car with ridiculously stiff coilover suspension on rough roads). Do you get to log the naps as PIC time?

Start a turn going and see how steep you can get the bank before he wakes up. (1)





(1) I do not actually advocate a new student pilot putting a plane into a steep turn to freak out an instructor. Just a joke.

[Colonel Sanders]

For the people who are shocked and outraged
at pilots falling asleep, here's a little perspective.

You might have heard of WWII. You probably
haven't heard of this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pappy_Boyington

Medal of Honor. Navy Cross. Flying Tiger.
Squadron Leader, Corsairs, USMC, Pacific.
26 kills.

You probably don't think he's much of a pilot
compared to you, but let's look at his autobiography
and say what he has to say about the subject
about sleeping on combat missions, leading his
formation of Corsairs:

I would take along rubber bands and pieces of
string, and I would rig these up on the instrument
panel and on the brackets on the side of the cockpit,
and I would have them all fixed up so that I could
sleep most of the way going up to enemy territory. I
would loosen my safety belt and half crawl out of
my parachute straps, and then I would doze off.

Feel free to rip Greg Boyington a new one, but do
tell us all how many combat kills you have, ok?

[airspeed250]

...
He did not intend to sleep on that flight.

Having been there and done that, I can assure
you that he was trying as hard as he could to
stay awake, and could not.

So what? Lots of people don't intend to have an accident after a few drinks either. I guess parents should sleep in the car after a long day at the office while their kids are student drivers. Think about the confidence boost! If the instructor is that tired he needs to cancel the lesson. He isn't there to catch up on his rest. When I'm paying $60/hr and $160/hr for the aircraft, I expect the instructor to be alert. The OP doesn't have much time under his belt from what I gather. If something goes wrong, the last thing he needs is a groggy instructor waking up from a nap.

I'm starting to really wonder about professionalism and aviation. Seems the two don't go hand in hand. On the general comments section there is a thread about how instructors should make more than $55/hr, but yet here, we see people defending a sleeping instructor. If he needs sleep, go home and sleep, and rebook the lesson when he can assure the student he is getting his monies worth and will be alert in the event something goes wrong. I don't care if he's a nice guy. I'm sure he is... and he is burnt out. I understand he might be up 12 hrs/day or had a long week. When you can't do your job properly it's time to be responsible versus hoping the student has some pity and carries on anyway. He is not doing anyone a favour. Using low pay as an excuse is absurd. I'm sure instructors know what the pay is like before signing up. Or is that being too responsible in this day and age? Indirectly, he is implying that it's ok to fly when you are overtired to the point of sleeping just to make a few extra dollars.

If he is trying to accommodate your late evening lessons, and can't stay awake, tell him you would like to wait until his schedule is better such that he has adequate rest. Either way, he should know better and be upfront with you.

[Colonel Sanders]

tell us all how many combat kills you have, ok?

[airspeed250]

Feel free to rip Greg Boyington a new one, but do
tell us all how many combat kills you have, ok?

No wonder pilot-less and single pilot airliners are the future and wages keep plummeting. Just need an autopilot and a newspaper.

If this is the case, instructors should be paying me to take them out so they can build PIC while napping or texting.

[Colonel Sanders]

Try not to get your panties in such a bunch.

This really isn't a big deal, despite your
attempts to whip it up into one. This low-
time instructor, probably making a whopping
$10k/yr (no typo) made a mistake, and
will no doubt learn from it.

Try really hard to curb your outrage.

[CpnCrunch]

CFIs make $10k/year?

[trey kule]

tell us all how many combat kills you have, ok?

The same as you.

Now share with us how much time you have in the military?

Huge difference between civilian and military demands on a pilot. Wars dont stop because you are tired.. Flight lessons can....and should.

I understood from the oposter he was the CFI...low time?
But you are right CS. At least I hope you are. That he has learned from his mistake and the public pillorying and will not do it again...
$10 an hour. That is brutal...maybe he just passed out from hunger