Can Norwegian Ireland start flying from Europe to Canada ?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... gatwick-la

A Norwegian company, with Irish Operating certificate, based in London (does not fly to Ireland), Thailand based crew (including real Thai Cabin Crew) hired on a Singapore Contract.

Who will block this monster from entering Canada ?

[timel]

ALPA usa has been fighting aggressively on that issue for a few weeks. They have gone congress many times.
Not that easy so far.

Won't be transport Canada blocking them that's for sure!

You can't stop a foreign aircraft from taking passengers in your country. Europeans regs have gone out control.

[skypirate88]

http://sos.alpa.org/

ALPA has been trying to stop these guys for a while now. I haven't seen any literature, but hopefully their effort extends north of the border as well.

[GRK]

Well…so far Big Red has been mostly successful blocking UAE airlines from expanding their routes in to Canada, would it be the same lobby that stops Norwegian? I'm gonna bet yes!

[complexintentions]

Problem is, Canada has a bilateral agreement with the UAE that restricts them to six flights/week to Canada.

I don't think such a limiting agreement is in place with EU carriers.

Why not just apply to work for Norwegian? I'd take Thai or Singaporean cabin crew any day!

Welcome to the global village, Canada!

[GRK]

Yeah remember the little sh*t storm that occurred when Canada refused to change the rules to allow EK and EY more access? All due to a very strong lobby from "you know who!" Watch how fast they lobby against letting Norwegian drop in with cheap seats to Europe…I'm pretty sure you'll see ALL the Canadian mainline and heavy jet charter operators howl if that ever happens.
As for Asian cabin crew? Careful what you wish for dude…they look nice and act like they love you, but it's really only the colour of your passport that counts! I have more than a few buddies who made that mistake! They end up with a seriously jealous little wife and the whole family gets to join in making sure that passport stays in the game! Just sayin'...

[bmc]

The EK and EY issue, in my opinion, offered dick all to Canadian carriers. There was nothing in it in exchange for giving away access to the Canadian market in exchange for nothing. Strangely, some people saw that as a really good deal for us. I'm sure they'd see giving US carriers unrestricted access to serve intra Canada markets as a good thing for Canadian carriers.

[GRK]

I have no dog in this fight…but I do recall that Canadian carriers were offered full and unlimited access to landing rights in the UAE. (Dubai has an Open Skies Policy) Trouble is, AC has the Star Alliance fighting any expansion unless they get a piece, and older and more expensive equipment that can't make it to the UAE non stop.

[bmc]

I have no dog in this fight…but I do recall that Canadian carriers were offered full and unlimited access to landing rights in the UAE. (Dubai has an Open Skies Policy) Trouble is, AC has the Star Alliance fighting any expansion unless they get a piece, and older and more expensive equipment that can't make it to the UAE non stop.

They were offered unlimited access to the UAE and open skies in DXB. So what? What is the market size between Canada and the UAE? it's small. Not enough to launch direct nonstop service. The plum, for UAE carriers, is their behind market: South Asian Sub Continent, the levant, Africa and Asia. The planes they fill in Toronto is not destined for the UAE. It feeds their hub. They will not give favourable settlement agreements to Canadian carriers for behind markets. They have no interest or no need.

So while it looks like a balanced agreement, there is nothing in it for Canadian carriers. Aside from Canada losing on that specific agreement, Gulf carriers are very aggressive on pricing. Offering wide open access to Canada will suck so much traffic away over the Gulf, away from European services. I know this intimately. I looked after this activity for a Gulf Carrier in a former life.

[GRK]

Preaching to the choir sir…I too share that experience…it's an old story, but why then did AC bail on the same customers when they did try India etc non stop? They had those routes right in their hands and even with C3 yapping at their heels on the route, they just stopped? (Kinda like dropping AMS for FRA during the PWA/CP debacle, no one read past the first page of the brief that said AMS was weak…the second page said FRA was a disaster for the airline…but AMS was making revenue on secondary lift!) I'm a firm believer that all airlines should compete on level fields but it would seem that AC gets a "nod" at the bilaterals that gives them a bit of a leg up over others. Remember the after 9/11 C3 try at bankruptcy protection? It was left to fail as the Govt of Canada made too many conditions and aircraft were seized offshore despite the rules which were to prevent that. Where were these rules when AC went into protection? Anyway, it's a drift unintended and while Norwegian has yet to try to break into any Canadian market, it's interesting to debate. Cheers,
GRK

[Gilles Hudicourt]

http://sos.alpa.org/

ALPA has been trying to stop these guys for a while now. I haven't seen any literature, but hopefully their effort extends north of the border as well.

Well the Norwegian 787s are performing LGW-USA flights now, so I do not think ALPA's efforts were successful. I ran into an Irish registered Norwegian 787 in LGW a few days ago. It was pushing back for a FLL flight.

[timel]

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air ... ada_en.htm

Under the Agreement EU airlines and Canadian airlines are allowed to operate direct flights between any point in Canada and any point within the EU. The Agreement also removes all restrictions on the number of weekly flights between Canada and the EU, and the capacity and prices offered by airlines. Further traffic rights will be liberalised gradually in parallel with the opening up of investment opportunities in airlines. The Agreement will finally establish a fully Open Aviation Area between the EU and Canada. EU nationals will be allowed to establish operations in Canada and freely invest in Canadian airlines and vice versa.

Furthermore, the Agreement will address common challenges such as safety, security or the environment. Both sides agreed to closely cooperate in order to mitigate the effects of aviation on climate change. In the field of safety and security, the agreement envisages the mutual recognition of each other's standards and one-stop security. Specific provisions to improve consumer protection are also included. This will facilitate the operations of airlines and airports, and will reduce hassle for passengers. The text provides for a strong mechanism to ensure that fair competition between operators is always maintained, which is another novelty in international aviation.

Norway is not a member of the EU - technically they might not be able to operate in Canada.
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air ... eement.pdf
Page 3


The only treaty Canada has with Norway is that one, 1958

http://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?lang=eng
View Treaty - E104728

[complexintentions]

As for little Asian cabin crew? Careful what you wish for dude…they look nice and act like they love you, but it's really only the colour of your passport that counts! I have more than a few buddies who made that mistake! They end up with a seriously jealous little wife and the whole family gets to join in making sure that passport stays in the game! Just sayin'...

Errr..after being based outside of Canada for more than decade working with predominantly Asian crew and filling my logbook with BKK/HKG/MNL/SGN/SIN/PEK/CAN/KIX/KUL etc it ain't exactly my first rodeo, but thanks for the concern. Who the hell said anything about marriage?! I love Asian women but if it flies, floats, etc...

bmc sums up nicely why UAE offering Open Skies to Canada is no equivalent to Canada offering the same to the UAE. They seem to be playing nicer together these days, someone got paid I guess.

I have a feeling Norwegian is only the tip of the, uh...iceberg though. No could stop the offshoring of labour in manufacturing, and this type of structure has been around in maritime shipping for ages, so why would aviation be different?

I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm not saying I don't sympathize with people who will try to fight it. But it's only a matter of time.

[timel]

I have a feeling Norwegian is only the tip of the, uh...iceberg though. No could stop the offshoring of labour in manufacturing, and this type of structure has been around in maritime shipping for ages, so why would aviation be different?

I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm not saying I don't sympathize with people who will try to fight it. But it's only a matter of time.

This is why Canadian pilots do need some kind of college, it takes resources for pilots to maintain their rights, study those kind of bilateral agreements independently, and make sure business and lobbies stop having people to think we can become an asian factory of stupid buttons pushers.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Norway is not a member of the EU - technically they might not be able to operate in Canada.
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air ... eement.pdf
Page 3


The only treaty Canada has with Norway is that one, 1958

http://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?lang=eng
View Treaty - E104728

I'm afraid you did not understand the problem at hand then.

Norway is not a member of the EU. True. But Norwegian was able to have Ireland, which is a member of the EU, let it register a subsidiary of Norwegian in Ireland. That makes the Irish subsidiary of Norwegian a member of the EU with full privileges.

If Norwegian can purchase an Irish Operating Certificate and Licence, what prevents deep pocketed Emirates and Ethiad from doing the same ? Expect soon to see Irish registered Emirates A-380s doing JFK-LHR.

If Ireland is going to become the flag of convenience for anyone wanting to have access to the priviliges of a EU carrier, Irish carriers should be withdrawn from the treaties.

[timel]

Norway is not a member of the EU - technically they might not be able to operate in Canada.
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air ... eement.pdf
Page 3


The only treaty Canada has with Norway is that one, 1958

http://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?lang=eng
View Treaty - E104728

I'm afraid you did not understand the problem at hand then.

Norway is not a member of the EU. True. But Norwegian was able to have Ireland, which is a member of the EU, let it register a subsidiary of Norwegian in Ireland. That makes the Irish subsidiary of Norwegian a member of the EU with full privileges.

If Norwegian can purchase an Irish Operating Certificate and Licence, what prevents deep pocketed Emirates and Ethiad from doing the same ? Expect soon to see Irish registered Emirates A-380s doing JFK-LHR.

If Ireland is going to become the flag of convenience for anyone wanting to have access to the priviliges of a EU carrier, Irish carriers should be withdrawn from the treaties.

It is ridiculous than it will be interesting to dig into that. Trade agreement between countries are completly useless than. Irish should be banned. Agreed.

[midwingcrisis]

This is a model that is working and will continue to do so. Wait till the model explodes into app that "buy" tickets.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

This "Irish" Norwegian does not even land in Ireland. It's no more Irish than most cargo ships are from Liberia or Panama.

[timel]

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/policy/air-blu ... u-2989.htm

[complexintentions]

Actually Emirates already operates Milan-New York on a daily flight. No Irish involvement necessary.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayinth ... k/7582919/

Yet in spite of the supposed legal block, as of today - nearly three months later - the flight still operates. The sad thing is, the real driving force behind the objection to the flight isn't even the Italians or the Americans, it's Emirates' competitor Etihad who is buying a big interest in Alitalia.

Nothing is as it seems, and this isn't a fight you can win by playing fair. Hence Canada will always be at a disadvantage.

[bmc]

Interesting Maktoum vs Al Nayan disagreement.

It would be interesting to read the latest Italy - DXB (or UAE) air service agreement. European stopovers enroute to North America are a plenty. EK must have been given fifths at some point for them to start operating that. It has to be there.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Interesting Maktoum vs Al Nayan disagreement.

It would be interesting to read the latest Italy - DXB (or UAE) air service agreement. European stopovers enroute to North America are a plenty. EK must have been given fifths at some point for them to start operating that. It has to be there.

Probably this has origins in Fifth Freedoms previously (or presently) held by US carriers through Italy......

[bmc]

Interesting Maktoum vs Al Nayan disagreement.

It would be interesting to read the latest Italy - DXB (or UAE) air service agreement. European stopovers enroute to North America are a plenty. EK must have been given fifths at some point for them to start operating that. It has to be there.

Probably this has origins in Fifth Freedoms previously (or presently) held by US carriers through Italy......

Traffic rights are negotiated between sovereign nations and then designated to airlines. They can't be sold to other countries or between airlines.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Traffic rights are negotiated between sovereign nations and then designated to airlines. They can't be sold to other countries or between airlines.

Fifth Freedom rights are negotiated between three Sovereign Nations and are normally reciprocal.

But an important question:

How does non-EU Norwegian get to Licence a company in Ireland ?

[wallflower]

I say good luck to them, it's more and more a free world.
If this was a Canadian enterprise doing the same, giving jobs to Canadians you wouldn't be whining.