Air Canada Career Path

[betster]

if you can't swing it on $160G's and a pension, you'd better have a serious look at how you live.

Amen to this. Great post by the way Dukepoint, most intelligent writing I've seen on here in awhile.

Except his generalization of WJ pilots was ridiculous. But his "few friends" speak for all 1300 of us. Ive worked with his "friends" they are a miserable bunch, they work as much OT as possible cause they have some dragon at home who needs granite counter tops, hardwood floors, a Benz in the driveway etc. But this is the interwbez and people tend to generalize. Remember we all can't be "the pilots, pilots want to be" or something like that.

Whoa... some of those "dragons" worked their asses off to support their husbands when they were making next to nothing. Its often the husbands who want to give their wives everything. It takes 2 to tango.

[yycflyguy]

Some ponderings on the "Air Canada Career Path" from one who didn't have the opportunity to take it, and yet, somehow survived.

You make some good points, DP. But the type of people you describe are at all companies - it's hardly a WestJet thing. I have former colleagues who think they've won the lottery because they made the left seat at Rouge. All they had to do was accept lower wages and longer hours. Yet, they think it's great. Nothing like getting people to eat a shit sandwich and smile while they do so! Some of them are overtime-whores like you describe. All of my jobs have had people hungry for more hours, more money. They're at AC too, and yes, Emirates as well.

The logistical challenges you mention of expat life are real. But again you generalize to the point of meaninglessness - relationships will last or they won't, distance is the least of the problems these days. When I lived in Vancouver, I would never see friends who lived in Port Coquitlam or Burnaby. The biggest obstacle was lack of time and will, not geography. After living in Dubai for more than a few years, I'm still very close to many back in Canada. This isn't the age of tall ships when living overseas meant saying goodbye forever and hoping for a letter every couple years - the internet and long-range travel have changed things somewhat. If your colleagues who left and went to Emirates have lost touch, you have to ask - how much effort have you put into maintaining the connection? I hate to tell ya, but most people build a new life with their family in their new home and community and of course the more superficial relationships fall away. It's just natural - if you can't deal with, then don't attempt to live outside of Canada, it's that simple. But I've realized that even giving up a lot of good things about life in Canada, there was an awful lot of bs that went along with it. I think sometimes I follow AvCanada just to remind me of that.

It's all about luck and timing. Emirates can be a brutal employer, and Dubai life can be a PITA. But I also enjoy the flying, the actual job. There's no way I would have ever made the position at AC that I have at EK. Not in 20 years, let alone the 3 1/2 that it took. That's just the reality. No way I would have ever had the variety of flying or world experiences. And yes, of course there's the money. But it was all just luck. And timing...would I join now? No way. The rosters aren't sustainable, the times to command are stretching ever longer and the bond has been increased. No thanks. But "playing in the sandbox" has worked out pretty good for more than a few.

I was fortunate. The concentrated, compressed timeline paid off. I saved/invested as much I could, so that I could one day not work if I so chose. You are a couple years older than me, and been at AC more than twice as long as I've been away. I hope to semi-retire by 2016. Then I'll be looking for some entry-level job in aviation in Canada or the US, or simply develop my (non-aviation) side business. I wouldn't want to be a B777 skipper at AC, working until I'm dead. Besides, been there, done that. It's funny how perspective changes as one ages - at one time I would have joined AC in a heartbeat and thought I'd died and gone to heaven. Now I would only work there because I enjoy flying and to make a little extra cash! That is a luxury I have worked hard to afford.

My point is, you can't look at YOUR career path at AC in isolation. The Air Canada of 14 years ago is not the AC of today, just like Emirates has changed much in my time here. Economic landscapes are shifting faster and faster and prizes will go to the adaptable. You certainly need a work-life balance, but there is also a certain amount of truth to the adage "make hay while the sun shines". At 46, you're only a medical away from losing your 160k/year. Hopefully not, of course. But the only dollars you can count on are the ones you already have. Money isn't everything but is IS helpful if you wish to own a home, put your kids through university, retire, silly things like that!

CI - still mistaken for a 30-something! (Mostly due to his immature behaviour)

Great post.

[N00b]

Some ponderings on the "Air Canada Career Path" from one who didn't have the opportunity to take it, and yet, somehow survived.

You make some good points, DP. But the type of people you describe are at all companies - it's hardly a WestJet thing. I have former colleagues who think they've won the lottery because they made the left seat at Rouge. All they had to do was accept lower wages and longer hours. Yet, they think it's great. Nothing like getting people to eat a shit sandwich and smile while they do so! Some of them are overtime-whores like you describe. All of my jobs have had people hungry for more hours, more money. They're at AC too, and yes, Emirates as well.

The logistical challenges you mention of expat life are real. But again you generalize to the point of meaninglessness - relationships will last or they won't, distance is the least of the problems these days. When I lived in Vancouver, I would never see friends who lived in Port Coquitlam or Burnaby. The biggest obstacle was lack of time and will, not geography. After living in Dubai for more than a few years, I'm still very close to many back in Canada. This isn't the age of tall ships when living overseas meant saying goodbye forever and hoping for a letter every couple years - the internet and long-range travel have changed things somewhat. If your colleagues who left and went to Emirates have lost touch, you have to ask - how much effort have you put into maintaining the connection? I hate to tell ya, but most people build a new life with their family in their new home and community and of course the more superficial relationships fall away. It's just natural - if you can't deal with, then don't attempt to live outside of Canada, it's that simple. But I've realized that even giving up a lot of good things about life in Canada, there was an awful lot of bs that went along with it. I think sometimes I follow AvCanada just to remind me of that.

It's all about luck and timing. Emirates can be a brutal employer, and Dubai life can be a PITA. But I also enjoy the flying, the actual job. There's no way I would have ever made the position at AC that I have at EK. Not in 20 years, let alone the 3 1/2 that it took. That's just the reality. No way I would have ever had the variety of flying or world experiences. And yes, of course there's the money. But it was all just luck. And timing...would I join now? No way. The rosters aren't sustainable, the times to command are stretching ever longer and the bond has been increased. No thanks. But "playing in the sandbox" has worked out pretty good for more than a few.

I was fortunate. The concentrated, compressed timeline paid off. I saved/invested as much I could, so that I could one day not work if I so chose. You are a couple years older than me, and been at AC more than twice as long as I've been away. I hope to semi-retire by 2016. Then I'll be looking for some entry-level job in aviation in Canada or the US, or simply develop my (non-aviation) side business. I wouldn't want to be a B777 skipper at AC, working until I'm dead. Besides, been there, done that. It's funny how perspective changes as one ages - at one time I would have joined AC in a heartbeat and thought I'd died and gone to heaven. Now I would only work there because I enjoy flying and to make a little extra cash! That is a luxury I have worked hard to afford.

My point is, you can't look at YOUR career path at AC in isolation. The Air Canada of 14 years ago is not the AC of today, just like Emirates has changed much in my time here. Economic landscapes are shifting faster and faster and prizes will go to the adaptable. You certainly need a work-life balance, but there is also a certain amount of truth to the adage "make hay while the sun shines". At 46, you're only a medical away from losing your 160k/year. Hopefully not, of course. But the only dollars you can count on are the ones you already have. Money isn't everything but is IS helpful if you wish to own a home, put your kids through university, retire, silly things like that!

CI - still mistaken for a 30-something! (Mostly due to his immature behaviour)

Great post.

Agreed!

[Dockjock]

No company is the same today as it was 14 years ago, 10 years ago, and certainly not 20 years ago, and won't be 10 years from now. This is not unique to airlines, aviation, flying, or any business at all. Using that as a criteria to evaluate how good a job is or what it's future prospects are is pointless. Do what you feel is best for you. The good old days were nowhere near as good as everyone thinks they remember them (my observation).

My personal opinion on whether to stay home and work for WJ or AC is that living in a country like Canada as a free man, you have the unique ability to leave the job at work. Overseas where your company pays for housing, schooling, club fees, transport, and all the extras, that's all great financially, but even when you're off work you're still very much a company man. Going to the beach club? Show your company ID. Going to the restaurant? Show company ID for discount. Athletic club, social club, travel, transport, housing...company ID. You're taken care of financially of that there is no doubt. But you never get to stop being an Emirates (or whatever) pilot.

[Old fella]

"The good old days were nowhere near as good as everyone thinks they remember them (my observation)..... "



From this 64 yr. old, those words are very true. The good old days (whatever time you perceive them to be) were good some of the time, but what wasn’t good was just that – not very good. And, there was plenty of not very good.
When the friendly chattering class old goats my age and older start to pontificated on “their good old days” I tell them they are usually full of shit and most of them are.

I am not the most popular amongst "pasture" boys, then again I refuse to hang out at Tim Hortons and the mall where most of them are.

Cheers
OF

[NAVAV]

Hello,

Brand new member on this forum (first post !) I am trying to find out what to expect as an AC pilot recruit.

Coming from a military (naval fighters) flying background this is all new to me, and I have to admit that if my Situation Awareness in my jet was as low has it is right know on what to expect if I get a shot at joining AC... I WOULD EJECT

Now don't get me wrong, I've spent evenings (and nights... )reading posts on forums about what to expect, nonetheless, I still need more explanations...

If my understanding is correct, when you apply for a job via their website, you apply for any spot at AC our AC rouge ?

● What about the RP - F/O deal ? When you join do they tell you after all papers are signed "you'll be a 320 F/O, no wait, you ll be a widebody RP" ? When do you know what fleet/ base you ll be assigned to ?

● If you are type rated, you don't have a training bond with AC, but do you owe the company a given numbers of years of service?

● If you get an interview and you go trough the selection, you enter the pool? Then You wait in the pool until they tell you : you have a ground school next month ?

● Usually how long does it take between they tell you your selection was a success and you enter ground school ?

Finally in your opinions do you think an ex military with ATPL, 1000+ fighters and 2000 total as any chance on the market right now ?

Thank you very much,

[snag]

If my understanding is correct, when you apply for a job via their website, you apply for any spot at AC our AC rouge ?

You get posted to an available spot, which may be at either, but most likely rouge.

● What about the RP - F/O deal ? When you join do they tell you after all papers are signed "you'll be a 320 F/O, no wait, you ll be a widebody RP" ? When do you know what fleet/ base you ll be assigned to ?

You don't know what you get until mid way through the Pilot Indoc Training (PIT) course. Based on a random class seniority draw and available spots.

● If you are type rated, you don't have a training bond with AC, but do you owe the company a given numbers of years of service?

No bond, no commitment. You can leave on day 2. It hasn't been a problem.

● If you get an interview and you go trough the selection, you enter the pool? Then You wait in the pool until they tell you : you have a ground school next month ?

That's the idea. When hiring is fast, there is no pool. That is not now the case

● Usually how long does it take between they tell you your selection was a success and you enter ground school ?

Depends on hiring. I got 12 days notice. Today there are people with many months in the pool. Hasn't been a new groundschool for a while, and none too close on the horizon.

Finally in your opinions do you think an ex military with ATPL, 1000+ fighters and 2000 total as any chance on the market right now ?

The military experience still carries a lot of weight at all the airlines. That being said, it's still a matter of supply and demand, and now demand is low.

[aV1aTOr]

No company is the same today as it was 14 years ago, 10 years ago, and certainly not 20 years ago, and won't be 10 years from now. This is not unique to airlines, aviation, flying, or any business at all. Using that as a criteria to evaluate how good a job is or what it's future prospects are is pointless. Do what you feel is best for you. The good old days were nowhere near as good as everyone thinks they remember them (my observation).

My personal opinion on whether to stay home and work for WJ or AC is that living in a country like Canada as a free man, you have the unique ability to leave the job at work. Overseas where your company pays for housing, schooling, club fees, transport, and all the extras, that's all great financially, but even when you're off work you're still very much a company man. Going to the beach club? Show your company ID. Going to the restaurant? Show company ID for discount. Athletic club, social club, travel, transport, housing...company ID. You're taken care of financially of that there is no doubt. But you never get to stop being an Emirates (or whatever) pilot.

Well said. I have numerous friends flying for big airlines overseas and they love it. Definitely making more money than I am at Air Canada. Good for them (no sarcasm intended).
For me personally, flying for an airline accounts for a limited percentage of importance in my life. In fact if I had no choice but to take my career to Hong Kong or Dubai I would leave aviation. Flying just isn't worth it to me. It's a job, and the one I have allows me to live comfortably in Canada where home will always be. Plus it allows me to travel the world and have a diverse career and make a very reasonable income and pension. With criteria like that to satisfy, it's hard to beat working for Air Canada.

[complexintentions]

I assume you have a replacement career or income source ready to go, should you have to leave aviation? It's easy to say when not faced with the choice. Heck, even if you ARE employed, gotta pay that massive mortgage on some pressed-board McMansion. That's freedom all right.

Aviation is something I regard solely as a job as well. So I wanted the maximum return on my time, professionally and financially. The stuff about expats "never stop being a XXX company pilot" in an earlier post is just uninformed nonsense. There are plenty of company guys at Air Canada who never "take the hat off" either.

Other than that, I agree that with the criteria you've set for yourself, you'll easily exceed them at Air Canada.

[Dockjock]

Indeed here in Canada most mortals, pilots even, usually have to borrow money to purchase items that run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars such as real estate. Unlike Emirates pilots who I suppose would just flake a few diamonds off their jewel-encrusted hats (that they never take off) should they elect to forgo irrevocably their room in the company palace.

As well in Canada, wood is viewed as a superb construction material. Strong, inexpensive, easy to work with and available in abundance. Alas, it is flammable and would likely be less suitable for use in a desert climate, where it would have to be imported anyhow. Houses are constructed from pure gold ingots, as are the streets I imagine, in an oasis like Dubai. I dunno, never been. Will go one day if I can scratch up enough pennies, by the grace of my royal overlord the Queen of England.

[complexintentions]

I'm sure there's a point buried in the sarcasm somewhere.

But since you seemed to have missed mine, I'll rephrase and summarize:

-Freedom in Canada is a bit of an illusion if that freedom is spent working mainly to pay off a large debt for an over-inflated, poorly constructed dwelling. Unfortunately, this describes both the current market, and most new construction.
-"Company Guys" exist in all companies.
-Pressed cornflakes and glue is not really wood.
-An Emirates or other expat pilot can certainly earn enough to pay cash for a house in Canada if they so desire.
-Sometimes expats get tired of know-it-all comments from people who've never even been to where we live.

I have several friends at AC, and we have a mutual respect and interest in each other's jobs. But given how things have worked out, NOT getting hired at AC was the best thing that ever happened to my "career path", even if I didn't know it at the time.

Anyway, gotta go scrape a bit of gold off the bottom of my shoe to buy dinner.

[aV1aTOr]

I assume you have a replacement career or income source ready to go, should you have to leave aviation? It's easy to say when not faced with the choice. Heck, even if you ARE employed, gotta pay that massive mortgage on some pressed-board McMansion. That's freedom all right.

Aviation is something I regard solely as a job as well. So I wanted the maximum return on my time, professionally and financially. The stuff about expats "never stop being a XXX company pilot" in an earlier post is just uninformed nonsense. There are plenty of company guys at Air Canada who never "take the hat off" either.

Other than that, I agree that with the criteria you've set for yourself, you'll easily exceed them at Air Canada.

Fortunately I haven't fallen for the ridiculous McMansion madness that is the RE market in major Canadian cities. We rent a beautiful house on acreage and have zero debt. Being married to an educated "professional", switching careers would be FAR less traumatic than dragging my young family across the globe to live in some expat compound. But I'd get to drive big shiny metal right??

Agreed about guys at AC who can't leave the job at work. But those are everywhere I guess.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

........

[complexintentions]

aV1aTOr,

I think you'd find most expats care about the same quality of life issues that everyone does. However the "big shiny metal" pays the best. Yes, I know....everyone says "I'd fly a Cessna 152 if it paid the same". But it doesn't, so it's a stupid sentiment.

If you really think people live in compounds in Dubai you should visit sometime. For something you've never tried you seem to have a strong opinion about the "trauma" it would cause your "young family" lol.

Sometimes expats get tired of know-it-all comments from people who've never even been to where we live.

Speaking of freedom, hope you've enjoyed your three weeks so far this year.

"If you had to pay all your taxes up front, you’d give government each and every dollar you earned before June 9."

http://business.financialpost.com/2014/ ... ederated=1

As I said, there's more than one way to measure freedom...

[jim_from_texas]

I've found that a lot of expats living in the middle east have to keep telling themselves how good they have it, just to keep sane. I mean, who the fk would want to spend 20-30 years in the middle of the desert? Yeah, you get compensated alright, but not so good like you want us to believe. As far as expat jobs go you desert dwellers are just alright when looking at the overall picture. Flying in the far east, 2 weeks off per month+annual leave, can live anywhere I want, same cash money like your overall EK package. On average 200-210 days off per year, that includes annual leave. Initial training is a bit long and frustrating, but once that is done it's nice and easy.

[complexintentions]

I've found that a lot of expats living in the middle east have to keep telling themselves how good they have it, just to keep sane. I mean, who the fk would want to spend 20-30 years in the middle of the desert? Yeah, you get compensated alright, but not so good like you want us to believe. As far as expat jobs go you desert dwellers are just alright when looking at the overall picture. Flying in the far east, 2 weeks off per month+annual leave, can live anywhere I want, same cash money like your overall EK package. On average 200-210 days off per year, that includes annual leave. Initial training is a bit long and frustrating, but once that is done it's nice and easy.

hahaha Sure, sure. So who's doing the self-justifying now?

Lots of guys leaving the ME to go to China, lots staying, some going back to their home countries. And lots who've left the ME and come back. I don't know any who've stayed as long as you claim, seeing as most carriers aren't that old!

Whatever floats your boat, and whatever works best for you and your situation. It's a global market now. Really, that's the takeaway from all this. You can play the willy-waving game all you want but I'm bored with it.

[jim_from_texas]

Not in China, or Korea and definitely not self justifying. Just reading your last few bragging posts so I thought I'd chip in and deflate your ego. But if you're on the "syoupa" 380 your ego is not too surprising.

[leftoftrack]

Not in China, or Korea and definitely not self justifying. Just reading your last few bragging posts so I thought I'd chip in and deflate your ego. But if you're on the "syoupa" 380 your ego is not too surprising.

He's a 777 captain

[complexintentions]

jim,

That you see my presenting the facts of alternative career paths as "bragging", speaks volumes about you, not me. The shot at the A380 pilots was pretty transparent hahah! Trying to bring someone down to your level is a tactic for losers. But having to deal with misconceptions about expat life is part of the deal, I've long realized.

Just to be clear, I wish anyone on, or embarking on, an Air Canada Career Path, the very best of luck. Sincerely. My intent was solely to inform that in an industry that can be fickle, if for some reason it doesn't work out, there are options.

Hope that was humble enough for you jim, it ain't gonna get any more so than that.

[Old fella]

"My intent was solely to inform that in an industry that can be fickle, if for some reason it doesn't work out, there are options."


Very good point sir. I am one of the many individuals who gave 30+ yrs. to this industry without being employed by any airline. It didn't happen for me (airline pilot) for various reasons. I came close in mid-80 as was offered a position with one of the Regionals who were in the start-up stage as F/O on DHC-8, I didn't accept cause of family reasons, money and relocation. I have never looked back and wondered should I have moved what would be the outcome and where would I be now - no point because it is mute. I trust from your posts you are yourself quite happy with your direction and like me no regrets and certainly no jealousies.