College of pilots

[timel]

They updated a video online on their website: http://www.collegeofpilots.ca
It is half an hour, but guess it sums up their positions.

Their views on TFW are politicaly correct. Guess it is going to upset a few. Maybe create a mandatory training + exams in order for foreigners to gain Canadian ATPL.. With exams specially designed for TFW in Canada.

I also think it is fair no to fix pilot wages. And I agree the college should not be able to interfere in labor disputes. Still I think it would be satisfying to have a scale established with high standards of course, I heard other professions do have a wage scale they can use if they wish to negociate their conditions but it is not mandatory.

[URC]

.

[teacher]

I also think it is fair no to fix pilot wages. And I agree the college should not be able to interfere in labor disputes. Still I think it would be satisfying to have a scale established with high standards of course, I heard other professions do have a wage scale they can use if they wish to negociate their conditions but it is not mandatory.

One step at a time. Now it is not on the agenda but if it is the wish of the membership these issues might be addressed. I'd love to see a wage sacked guide where especially new pilots could actually see if they are getting ripped off.

Keep in mind also that if you start repairing the issues of the profession from the bottom up wages and working conditions start to improve slowly on their own. It becomes a result of the changes even if that wasn't the main goal.

[timel]

Thanks for the feedback.

I Read people saying the college will force ATPL pilots to have a university degree? Hope it is not true.

[Cat Driver]

I Read people saying the college will force ATPL pilots to have a university degree? Hope it is not true.

That is highly unlikely as there is no need for a university degree to fly any airplane in aviation, hell I can barely read and write and count my fingers and I have flown most everything in the industry from the Mooney Mite to heavy transport cat. stuff.

And I support the college effort.

[trey kule]

The college could do a lot for wages if they simply starting pressuring the federal labour folks to look at the small companies..Stat holidays. 84 duty weeks. That type of thing.

The sense I get is it is all about the airlines , and not all pilots. And , of course, the TFW....

[Boreas]

I Read people saying the college will force ATPL pilots to have a university degree? Hope it is not true.

That is highly unlikely as there is no need for a university degree to fly any airplane in aviation, hell I can barely read and write and count my fingers and I have flown most everything in the industry from the Mooney Mite to heavy transport cat. stuff.

And I support the college effort.

Yes, unfortunately a reduction in the ATP base, a decrease of
the supply/demand ratio, and a resultant increase in WAWCON
is very unlikely to happen.

Hell, if anything, lets do the opposite and start handing out
ATPLs via the new 1:1 PIC:SIC rule.

[Illya Kuryakin]

If pilots would stop working for table scraps, half the issues everyone rants about would go away. After spending a few days out on the water on my sailboat, and a weekender at the MOA rally in MSP, it reminds me of why I care less and less about what happens to all the whiners in the aviation industry in this country. The bitching and moaning will continue long after we've gone. It's the nature of the beast.
Ciao
Illya

[timel]

If pilots would stop working for table scraps, half the issues everyone rants about would go away. After spending a few days out on the water on my sailboat, and a weekender at the MOA rally in MSP, it reminds me of why I care less and less about what happens to all the whiners in the aviation industry in this country. The bitching and moaning will continue long after we've gone. It's the nature of the beast.
Ciao
Illya

Good morning! Someone woke up on the right foot.
http://www.arinanikitina.com/19-ways-to ... -foot.html

[cbty]

I think pilot training should become a graduation training like if you study in a college to become graduate. Viceversa nowdays is a driving school training.

[AirFrame]

The Professional Engineers associations publish salary surveys that report on the salaries their members are earning. Unfortunately, as these are publicly available, and based on employee-supplied data, employers will not use them or follow their recommendations. HR departments want salary surveys that you don't have access to so you can't argue that they aren't following industry averages... So they use surveys compiled by the corporations. Each group will argue that the other group's surveys are biased to support their members' agenda.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I think pilot training should become a graduation training like if you study in a college to become graduate. Viceversa nowdays is a driving school training.

Do you mean "graduate" training, as in a second degree? Do you have a degree? Silly rabbit.
Illya

[airspeed250]

If pilots would stop working for table scraps, half the issues everyone rants about would go away. After spending a few days out on the water on my sailboat, and a weekender at the MOA rally in MSP, it reminds me of why I care less and less about what happens to all the whiners in the aviation industry in this country. The bitching and moaning will continue long after we've gone. It's the nature of the beast.

Illya nailed it.

Simply stop accepting a low wage. But...here's the problem. There are TOO MANY PILOTS (not talking high time left seat). So, you can't walk away from the low ball offers because the next guy behind you is willing to work for even less... or the permanent TFW. Since your training and experience essentially only lets you do one job, and there are too many applicants, guess who has the bargaining power. Sorry, but why would an employer pay more????

I think it's humorous people think that joining a college will somehow increase wages if there is a fee guide, etc. Set the wages where you want... won't matter. It's not solving the supply/demand problem, or addressing where does the extra money for wages come from.

If the pay is too low, don't accept the job and then complain later.

[Colonel Sanders]

I keep saying ...

Pilots need a union - not a college, or university,
or Master's degrees in "life experience".

The mission of the union would be to stop pilots
from undercutting each other. No "work for free".
No "Left seat on an RJ for $50k".

There would be considerably less interest in the
TFW program, if they had to pay foreigners the
same as Canadians. Another benefit of a union.

[airspeed250]

I think pilot training should become a graduation training like if you study in a college to become graduate. Viceversa nowdays is a driving school training.

Yes, but when someone suggests having a degree (almost every professional college requires significant classroom education), there is resistance ironically from people who want to increase wages and working conditions. I guess they simply want to join a college and magically wages go up.

I Read people saying the college will force ATPL pilots to have a university degree? Hope it is not true.

Imagine if every pilot had a degree in Engineering, or a degree in law, finance, or a trade ticket. Now, all of a sudden they have true bargaining power... ie an option. If the airline says we'll give you 30K, you can tell them sorry, no thanks, I'm going to go make 60-100K, to start, in almost any other industry. It will help with the surplus of lower time pilots, since most won't complete the degree, and second, some will go into another industry. The way things are now, pilots are literally forced to accept whatever wage is put in front of them.

[DonutHole]

Nobody is forced to do anything..

We need the best *pilots* and degrees don't create the best pilots, the best flight training creates the best pilots.

Creating an elitist organization the cuts out the poor folks so the rich kids can continue to play is a dumb way to fix the industry..

Besides it won't work, it will drive wages lower as people with degrees and licenses have huge debt and lack leverage, and what market are all of these new degree holders going to flood when flying doesn't pan out?

"We see here that you're a pilot (and we know pilots get the shaft)"

What the college wants to do is lower the supply by pricing the poor people out of CPL. I've been following this bs from the beginning and they want to take over licensing and impose an ethical code. It doesn't say that on their website right now but they've been changing their message since the beginning to pander to whatever group of pilots is next on their quota list.

If you don't have a degree stay away from the college. .. they only want your money so they can get rid of you with the long game.

[airspeed250]

I keep saying ...

Pilots need a union - not a college, or university,
or Master's degrees in "life experience".

The mission of the union would be to stop pilots
from undercutting each other. No "work for free".
No "Left seat on an RJ for $50k".

Sorry, but if I'm happy flying for 35K, why the hell would I want a union to block me from accepting the job? Maybe I don't have kids, or married, have money in the bank and rrsps, paid off car, and live a very simple life.

Pilots need a masters degree, yes, or something else to fall back on. The reason they are undercutting each other is they probably have no other option but to take that RJ/King Air job at ANY wage. Second, where will the money come from for higher wages? Since most flights are relatively thin margins, and most travellers are very sensitive to ticket prices, ?(ie: not a necessity to take the family to Disneyland) raising fares won't work.

If consumers can support higher fares, they would be already be in place right now. Airlines are extremely smart at knowing what the market will support. Forcing the industry to pay X for a RJ crew means cancelled flights and job losses, for the benefit of those who get to keep their job (like a typical union). It will mean only those who need to fly, will. The trend is to LOWER ticket prices to fill every seat...I can't see wages going up any time soon since every single airline you see starting today is a low(er) cost carrier.

In the bigger picture, CS, the problem is too many applicants in a industry that doesn't have a lot of money to go around. If a person knows what they are getting into, there should be no reason for disappointment regarding wages and industry direction. Writing was on the wall ten years ago.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I keep saying ...

Pilots need a union - not a college, or university,
or Master's degrees in "life experience".

The mission of the union would be to stop pilots
from undercutting each other. No "work for free".
No "Left seat on an RJ for $50k".

There would be considerably less interest in the
TFW program, if they had to pay foreigners the
same as Canadians. Another benefit of a union.

Totally agree. A College will fly when pigs fly! Not until. Grow teeth, or go home.
If you work for peanuts, that's all you're worth.
The ball is in the pilot's court. Why do so many hit it into the net? Because you've been brainwashed to believe you're only worth a K a month. Grow a pair, people.
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

I keep saying ...

Pilots need a union - not a college, or university,
or Master's degrees in "life experience".

The mission of the union would be to stop pilots
from undercutting each other. No "work for free".
No "Left seat on an RJ for $50k".

Sorry, but if I'm happy flying for 35K, why the hell would I want a union to block me from accepting the job? Maybe I don't have kids, or married, have money in the bank and rrsps, paid off car, and live a very simple life.

Pilots need a masters degree, yes, or something else to fall back on. The reason they are undercutting each other is they probably have no other option but to take that RJ/King Air job at ANY wage. Second, where will the money come from for higher wages? Since most flights are relatively thin margins, and most travellers are very sensitive to ticket prices, ?(ie: not a necessity to take the family to Disneyland) raising fares won't work.

If consumers can support higher fares, they would be already be in place right now. Airlines are extremely smart at knowing what the market will support. Forcing the industry to pay X for a RJ crew means cancelled flights and job losses, for the benefit of those who get to keep their job (like a typical union). It will mean only those who need to fly, will. The trend is to LOWER ticket prices to fill every seat...I can't see wages going up any time soon since every single airline you see starting today is a low(er) cost carrier.

In the bigger picture, CS, the problem is too many applicants in a industry that doesn't have a lot of money to go around. If a person knows what they are getting into, there should be no reason for disappointment regarding wages and industry direction. Writing was on the wall ten years ago.

What ARE you drinking? If a union was there to block you from taking a low wage position, there wouldn't be a low wage position to be offered in the first place. Still with me?
If consumers could afford higher fares......has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do wit pilot wages. They're LOW because pilots will work for them! NOT because companies can't afford to pay livable wages. They CAN. They just don't have to! Pilots work for peanuts.....it makes good business sense to pay them peanuts! So they do! This is why a union is of paramount importance to pilots. News flash...the College has already stated that increasing wages/stopping bonds/etc., is NOT in their mandate!
Illya

[DonutHole]

Give us another news flash when we find out what their mandate actually is...

[teacher]

What the college wants to do is lower the supply by pricing the poor people out of CPL. I've been following this bs from the beginning and they want to take over licensing and impose an ethical code. It doesn't say that on their website right now but they've been changing their message since the beginning to pander to whatever group of pilots is next on their quota list.

Uh, no. How could they ever price people out of flying? Flying schools set prices. Approving curriculums and improving pilot training has no effect on price. Everybody knows that pilot training these days has not kept up with the industry. Learning it on the line is a great way to get killed not learn.

[airspeed250]

Uh, no. How could they ever price people out of flying?

I think he means if the college was to require a university degree... at least that's how I read it.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Uh, no. How could they ever price people out of flying?

I think he means if the college was to require a university degree... at least that's how I read it.

Who, pray tell, would give the college the right to require any type of formal education, whatsoever? Some think this college idea is a "silver bullet" which will make pilot jobs so much better. They'll take your dues, and you will notice no change.
Frankly, I think calling it a college is the idea of elitist narcissists. Try and form an association, and you might accomplish something.
Illya

[DonutHole]

Uh, no. How could they ever price people out of flying?

I think he means if the college was to require a university degree... at least that's how I read it.

Who, pray tell, would give the college the right to require any type of formal education, whatsoever? Some think this college idea is a "silver bullet" which will make pilot jobs so much better. They'll take your dues, and you will notice no change.
Frankly, I think calling it a college is the idea of elitist narcissists. Try and form an association, and you might accomplish something.
Illya

That's the thing. If you've been following this from the beginning the agenda is to take over licensing, or establish a labour cartel... other than organized Labour that's the only way you can create the kind of access restrictions that have been talked about in discussions past.

They were really open about wanting to take over licensing in the beginning, that drew criticism because in the beginning they tied that into the idea that you would need a degree, and you would need to meet their ethical requirements in order to use your license. That's the Genesis of the elitist characterization that's floating around.

Now it's all vague and hush hush because the backlash was pretty significant... so they've taken their platform underground by using the catch all phrase democracy to say they don't intend to do anything but what the membership votes on.... look at the COPA cluster @#$!, these people have an agenda and it's clear they simply lack the political juice to push forward... hence they dropped any talk of needing a degree because they need your money.

[DonutHole]

What the college wants to do is lower the supply by pricing the poor people out of CPL. I've been following this bs from the beginning and they want to take over licensing and impose an ethical code. It doesn't say that on their website right now but they've been changing their message since the beginning to pander to whatever group of pilots is next on their quota list.

Uh, no. How could they ever price people out of flying? Flying schools set prices. Approving curriculums and improving pilot training has no effect on price. Everybody knows that pilot training these days has not kept up with the industry. Learning it on the line is a great way to get killed not learn.

I'm not sure where you come from but the paper push required to make those changes to flight school oc costs Monayyy. .. who eats that cost? The consumer (trainee)

And they want every CPL (who actually wants to work) to have a degree... those aren't free either.