Sky Regional Pilot Contract

[Stinky]

Good post Maxpwr. I find it pretty funny that regionalrat can come on here and throw a tantrum about how bad Sky is and provide false "Facts" and everyone praises him for his honesty and refreshing candor.

Try coming on here and complaining about Jazz and you'll receive a thorough bashing. Jazz is far from perfect and has become a bit of a dead end job.

Your post seemed pretty unbiased so I'll be the first and probably only one thanking you for the information.

[rudder]

Your post seemed pretty unbiased so I'll be the first and probably only one thanking you for the information.

Unbiased = what you actually get paid each month/how many days you actually worked.

Post this info and that will answer all of the questions that have been posed on this thread. The rest is in fact rhetoric, opinion, and estimation.

[Stinky]

Rudder, you posted the Jazz pay scale based on 85 hours a month. That's not guaranteed, I believe the guarantee is 75 hours or blocking average whichever is higher.

[Maxpwr]

Fair enough Rudder. Here goes. Off the top of my head I bring home $4400 a month. Single day pairings so per diems are almost non existant. Since I started I've never worked 20 days. On average I'd say I've gone to work maybe 15-16 days a month.

Actually I worked 20 days one time but took home over $7000 that month.

Keep in mind we are scheduled for 20 days but some of those are standby (reserve at Jazz) and grey days. 99% of the time I don't get called out so that's how I end up working 15-16 average.

Stinky thanks for hearing me out. I'm gonna try to put out the FO pay and lower block months soon.

Cheers

PS: To be fair I know that the Embraer guys end up getting called out a lot on standby but it was a startup operation that had challenges as they all do so that was to be expected.

Edited for the PS.

[rudder]

Rudder, you posted the Jazz pay scale based on 85 hours a month. That's not guaranteed, I believe the guarantee is 75 hours or blocking average whichever is higher.

That was the previous posters metric. Go ahead and do the math. Min guarantee at Jazz is 77.5. For those that want to factor in performance overrides, Jazz pays out $1500-$2500 per year per pilot. There is also a 60% Jazz ESOP matching program for Encore defenders that want to impune that ESOP forms part of total pilot compensation (even though participation is voluntary and requires pilot contribution). If you really want to get carried away, then calculate the value of the Jazz DB pension plan. An FAE $130K and 2% benefit earns a post retirement benefit of $2600 annually for each year of service. In other words, 25 years of service would pay out approximately $65,000 annually on a non-indexed basis after age 60.

The good news for those pilots employed at companies with no collective agreement is the CAR's rest rules make it virtually impossible to work more than 20 days in any 30 rolling days. However, if you do not have a min daily credit that can result in lots of work days for a minimum pay cheque.

The numbers that truly reflect what the job is worth is what you are actually getting paid each month (gross not net as each company has different deductions for pension, benefits, union dues, parking, etc). Personally I could care less but for those that have a point to make it will have to be apples vs apples. And per diems are not pay (although they come in handy when making the mortgage payment!)

[Regional Rat]

Regional Rat you're just effing hopeless! You don't even know your own salary! How can you expect these people to take you seriously when you don't even know what you make??? Allow me to correct your BS.

LMAO!!! You sir, are just as "effing hopeless" as I am and far from bias. You have your way of seeing it and I have mine, deal with it! I am after all just as entitled to my opinion as you are. I can take the pathetic personal attacks, I have my ego in-check. If it helps yours, go ahead and fire-away! I will concede one point to you. But sorry, I'm going to have to correct you on the rest. Just to be fair, I'll try not to get pulled down to your level and use immature slurs (I don't need them to sell my point).

Quote: "Current Yr1 Capt base $52000 NOT $50000. Plus 65 hrs a month credit PLUS GUARANTEED 5% profit share = $73437 NOT $67940. I think your abacus is missing a few beads."

50/52K, YOU ARE SO RIGHT! Gold star today! OK, so we can add $2K to the pay-scale, yeah! After tax that's a little over $100 a month, yeah! I'm so sorry if I offended you! I have made an unforgivable mistake I guess... Suppose I should spend more time studying every word written to me from our great superiors! Now let's move on.

Quote: "Do you really think they want us to work 65hrs a month? Do you think they want that kind of inefficiency? From the last year and a half what have you seen that makes you think they would hire sooooo many pilots so as to just use you for 65hrs?! Hmmm? I think comparing salaries at 85hrs is REASONABLE."

I respectfully disagree. A minimum guarantee is a minimum guarantee, it is what it is. Calculate as you please, but to only offer the scale at 85 hours as you did is no less correct than I was (above when you graciously corrected me).

Quote: "Actually in FACT those banks would see the employment letter you get from HR stating your base salary including the 65hrs GUARANTEED MINIMUM. No problem getting a mortgage."

Wrong. If you took a moment to read what I wrote you will see the words "some banks" written. FACT; I happen to know of a specific case where this was an issue. Which will have an impact in limiting the size of mortgage available... So sorry I can't agree with you. Note, I didn't waste the space quoting the rest of your personal attack on me, but for the readers interest just go back a page and read for yourself.

Then to address the 5% (guarantee) and 2.5% (variable)... If it were 'guaranteed' then why isn't just added to our base pay? Simple; if the profit margin falls for whatever reason, it can be removed. It isn't written anywhere that we 'must' get it and you won't see it on your 'Employment-Letter'.
Convoluted 2.5% OTP; First, the same as above applies here. Second; if you want to sit on your managers lap and read the fine print to understand it, be my guest. Personally, any bonus is nice but as you've probably noticed I'm not too into the SR Kool-aid. But if you are, feel free to have my serving.

All in all we didn't get much added to our under-appreciated professional pay. Topped up to 3.5% which is just barely COLA, not getting ahead just keeping up. I noticed you didn't address this, nothing there?.. Then some convoluted new bonus, and yes it's something but it remains to be seen how much! The fact that our profession is underpaid and under-appreciated hasn't changed or been addressed. A fact that I think most will agree (I sure do): If you feel that being paid Bus-Driver wages to fly multimillion dollar equipment after years of career building is alright, that IS your right. As it is mine to to believe otherwise.

It's obvious that you and I are on 2 different poles, and you're just going to have to learn to live with it... Sorry boss! Judging from your fervent defense (I know YOU don't need a dictionary) of SR, if you aren't management yourself you're pretty effing 'close' to them so don't pretend to be unbiased - as you clearly are! As for your vehement attempt to berate me, if it helps you feel better, be my guest. BUT if that's all you've got to try and discredit my stance on the matter, that's pretty weak and shows that you don't have too much to shoot holes in my argument. Sorry to break it to you bud. Yes you've got a point on me, I don't study my contract because all I need to know is that it depresses me and that HAS NOT CHANGED WITH THIS NEW 'DEAL'!

Sorry to disagree with your stance, but that's just the way it is in a democratic country. I wouldn't change that no matter how much I get yelled at and cheap shots just roll off my back. I feel my main point is quite correct and can't be 'knocked-over' with desperate small-minded tactics.

RR
But hey, can't say you didn't try!

[Maxpwr]

RR

I suggest you re-read your initial post in this thread and tell me if you come off as deserving of respect from your co-workers. I can't abide someone who comes out to fan the flames of hate against me and all my colleagues from the haters out there. I'm not proud about where this exchange has gone but people who deserve respect get respect. Those who don't...don't. So as you said you are certainly entitled to your opinions. We obviously don't see eye to eye on this subject so I'll just leave it at that. Best of luck in your future endeavours. As so for me being in management? Lol! Nope, just a grunt like everybody else.

Now for that FO scale somebody asked for...

As of Jan 1st 2015. Based on 85hrs (only 65 guarranteed though)
Yr1: $49724
Yr2: $51350
Yr3: $52624
Yr4: $53928
Yr5: $55264
Yr6: $56369

[Regional Rat]

RR

I suggest you re-read your initial post in this thread and tell me if you come off as deserving of respect from your co-workers. I can't abide someone who comes out to fan the flames of hate against me and all my colleagues from the haters out there. I'm not proud about where this exchange has gone but people who deserve respect get respect. Those who don't...don't. So as you said you are certainly entitled to your opinions. We obviously don't see eye to eye on this subject so I'll just leave it at that. Best of luck in your future endeavours. As so for me being in management? Lol! Nope, just a grunt like everybody else.

Now for that FO scale somebody asked for...

As of Jan 1st 2015. Based on 85hrs (only 65 guarranteed though)
Yr1: $49724
Yr2: $51350
Yr3: $52624
Yr4: $53928
Yr5: $55264
Yr6: $56369

MaxPwr, okay at your suggestion I've re read the post.... With the omission of the single fact you were so kind to correct me on, I stand by all of it! Points 1 thru 6. And the synopsis; "Same old re wrapped S#!T sandwich" and "not 'competitive' more like 'compareable'. It's all absolute truth, IMHO. And sure, for every bias there's an equal and opposite for it. I have my bias and you have yours. I speak in fervent terms on behalf of myself and my colleagues, you seem just as fervent in selling the management narrative. You think it's all good here at Sky, I do not. I have absolutely NOTHING to be ashamed of and will not be convinced otherwise. Do I deserve the respect of my colleagues? Sure, why not? At least those that share my views and there are plenty, believe me there are! In fact, there are so very few that seem satisfied that you'd have more trouble figuring out who I am than I would figuring out who you are (not that it matters at all, just making the point if you get it). For those who don't offer respect to me, I don't really care! Not in the least! I'm not here for respect, yours or anybody else. I'm here to offer the narrative that balances yours, (except for your personal mud-slinging tactics)... And no I wouldn't be proud if I were you either. Added to that you haven't offered one real counter argument to any of my 6 points. But that's just the way I see it, again you are also entitled to see it anyway you like. Knock yourself out!

Now if you're going to publish pay scales at the top end (85hrs + 5%) please also publish the actual minimum guarantee. Be realistic, instead of just offering the rosy-picture. Because that FO pay scale you just posted looks pretty generous on behalf of your manager friends.

Have a good one bud!

[Regional Rat]

Good post Maxpwr.
Your post seemed pretty unbiased so I'll be the first and probably only one thanking you for the information.

Ahhhh, suuuuuuure!!! If you look a little closer you'll see the bias. Just opposite to mine. But hey, read it anyway you like!

[Maxpwr]

For the record, I'm not here to debate the merits (or lack thereof) of the new pay scales with you. I'm simply providing new information pertinent to this thread as it was written. Is it perfect? Not even close. Is it better than before? I think so. I'm a glass half full kind of guy. Rome wasn't built in a day etc etc. I guess we just see things differently. Like how can you just dismiss the value of a 5% RRSP match so easily? Since you're so adamant about the minimum hours I'll just leave it to you to provide that info.

[timel]

I agree that pays should be published with minimum hours guaranteed only, whatever the airline, it is the money you are sure to have in your pockets end of each month.

There is a big gap between 65-85hrs after 12 month. I have learned that things change pretty fast and a good year in aviation doesn't mean the next one will be great. The rest is just an extra, but companies wont give you more $$$ out of compassion if they don't have to.

Thanks for the informations.

[Regional Rat]

I agree that pays should be published with minimum hours guaranteed only, whatever the airline, it is the money you are sure to have in your pockets end of each month.

There is a big gap between 65-85hrs after 12 month. I have learned that things change pretty fast and a good year in aviation doesn't mean the next one will be great. The rest is just an extra, but companies wont give you more $$$ out of compassion if they don't have to.

Thanks for the informations.

Agreed...

So here it is (yes I double checked the numbers from the original TOE). There's quite a bit of ambiguity in the communication given, which is a source of contention amongst many people here. The pay system is so complicated to track there is a well documented history of many, many errors through payroll and most crew members have given up trying to track or cross check for errors! Maybe that's they way the want it?... Just sayin!

Also, yes there is a 5% "guaranteed" annual bonus paid quarterly... But I'll let the reader add that themselves if they like. I'm only going to publish what you are GUARANTEED, say, if things really slowed down in this fickle industry for some reason. Becasue we all know it CAN happen!... Alright?

FO (based on 31,200 Base and 14/flt hour and 65hr min guarantee):

Year 1 - 42,120
Year 2 - 43,594.20
Year 3 - 45,119.99
Year 4 - 46,699.19
Year 5 - 48,333.66
Year 6 - 50,025.34

Captain (Based on 52,000 and 23/flt hour and 65hr min guarantee):

Year 1 - 69,940
Year 2 - 72,387.90
Year 3 - 74,921.47
Year 4 - 77,543.72
Year 5 - 80,257.75
Year 6 - 83,066.78

Now for my bit of Bias (read if you like):

Our 6th year Captain makes about as much as a 2nd/3rd year Porter Captain, YEAH!

This is completely inadequate no matter what you want to compare it too! We are professionals operating very expensive equipment with a lot of responsibility and a lot of career development behind us. Except for a few, at this level we have 'paid our dues already'... What SR gave us was an inflation match over 6 years (added to a crappy salary) and a couple of bonuses that look great on the surface, however I refuse to go through life with 'blinders' on! IT IS WHAT IT IS!!! WE GOT JACK-S#!T!

Of course you're free to disagree!

[rudder]

What about a union? All it takes is 50%+1. If ALPA is not interested I am sure that UNIFOR would be (they represent the Sunwing and Cargojet pilots).

What is the turnover rate in pilots at SKY? You will need at least an 80% stable pilot base to make certification a practical reality given that there will be those currently at SKY that will be opposed.

If you apply for certification then there will be a statutory freeze period where the company can neither add nor subtract from your existing WAWCON. This freeze will remain until a collective agreement is achieved or strike/lockout.

Food for thought.

[Regional Rat]

I'm pretty sure there'd be a lot of support for one if it got started. Well over 50% would not surprise me at all... That being said, I don't know of any action in that direction. From what I've observed (from a distance) is this company would fire anyone that stood up in the effort. They'd probably threaten shutting down as well to scare the folks... Either way there'd be resistance from the company.

Yes turnover seems pretty high! Not sure what the numbers are, but I don't many people that claim to be here for the longterm. Maybe a few, but I haven't met them. So getting a stable pilot base might be the issue. How convenient for the company! LOL

[rudder]

All that is required is a card drive.

Find a prospective union (ALPA/UNIFOR). If they are interested then a system will be put in place to allow pilots to sign membership cards with a nominal fee associated (i.e. $50). These cards are collected by the union. Once they have over 50% (usually looking for a higher number to avoid the CIRB conducting a certification vote but higher initial subscription is not imperative) then the union will submit the cards and documentation to the CIRB for certification.

It is against the law in Canada for an employer to discipline or discharge any employee that participates in or advocates for unionization.

[Maxpwr]

I have to agree there's been a lot of errors in payroll. So bad that yes you need to track everything on your paycheck. They've missed a lot of things on my pay and I usually email the payroll lady as soon as my paystub shows up. Usually get a payment withing a few days but still this shouldn't happen! On the flip side I have been overplayed from time to time.

[Regional Rat]

FO (based on 31,200 Base and 14/flt hour and 65hr min guarantee):

Year 1 - 42,120
Year 2 - 43,594.20
Year 3 - 45,119.99
Year 4 - 46,699.19
Year 5 - 48,333.66
Year 6 - 50,025.34

Captain (Based on 52,000 and 23/flt hour and 65hr min guarantee):

Year 1 - 69,940
Year 2 - 72,387.90
Year 3 - 74,921.47
Year 4 - 77,543.72
Year 5 - 80,257.75
Year 6 - 83,066.78

Now further to my previous post, let's see how hard they've made it to make more money. A factual demonstration of how CRAPPY the deal is here at SR.

Captain example given, of course FO is based on $14/hr (and 31.2K Base) and results are about 2/3 of the below numbers.
Minimum Captain Monthly is: (Base/12) + (23x65) = $5,828.33 Gross, between $3,800 - $4,100 NET (depending on tax rate & deductions).

Between 65 - 80 hours you are ONLY paid variable rate $23/flt hour:
23 x 15/hr = $345 Gross & $241.50 Net (approx) added to monthly income = $16.10/hr literal take home
Which means that a 4 hour credit day, with 10 hours duty = $6.44/hr actual hourly. I know what your going to say!; "That's not how it's done in the industry" but this is a REAL life demonstration of how & what is wrong. Don't forget, much of the time you might be gone from home for 48-72 hours for the same 4 hours/day OR LESS! There is ONLY a 4 hour PER PAIRING minimum here not PER DAY as it should be.

Between 80 - 85 hours you only get 2 x $23 x 5hr = $230 Gross, $161 Net (approx) $32.20/hr literal take home
Between 85 - 90 hours you only get 3 x $23 x 5hr = $345 Gross, $241.5 Net (approx) $48.30/hr literal take home

Not until after 90 hours or work an SDO do you get BASE + VARIABLE X 1.5 = $110.97/hr

Now here's some Funky SR math! How do they get $110.972 do you ask?
They divide our Base 52,000/85 hours... Not 65 hours we are only guaranteed!

52000/12 months/85 hours = 50.98 hour Base + 23/hr Variable = 73.98/hr x 1.5 = $110.97 OT rate
When it should closer to $134/hr OT as they should also base it on our minimums.

Synopsis: Not worth going past 65 hours, only come in for SDO!
From these and previously stated reasons you might be able to see why I hold contention towards SR and more so the industry in general.
Also, you can see the why they didn't just put us on an hourly; BECAUSE THEY WANT TO KEEP OUR MONEY!

[justwork]

FWIW I worked at Porter before coming to Sky. I really enjoyed my time at Porter but after talking it through with friends, and careful consideration, I moved to Sky Regional. I'll work 30ish days less this year and make the same amount of money with a MUCH better schedule. This new pay scale is complicated but it is an increase. The pay rate changes 80-85 and 85-90 are also in a trail period starting August 1st and will be reevaluated and adjusted based on feedback in January, they're not carved in stone. So lets breathe.

Sky has had the embraer for a year, and if you fly 85 hours a month (which you more then likely will) you will be earning 3rd year captain pay at Porter and be competitive with a first year captain at Jazz, and you don't have to wear a silly hat. I think that's a pretty good place to start building from. Yes RegionalRat, you did mention that you had 3 months last year where you were working considerably less, and that is a difficult position to be in. Was during a heavy training or hiring period? I would imagine that regardless of the attrition rate Sky Regional will not see a hire/training pace comparable to the start up, and consequently it would be very rare to not fly 85. Why don't they guarantee 80-85 then? I don't know.

Some other things that are left out. If they're short crew and you're on grey day, and you call them, you get OT rate. If you're drafted on a grey day with less than 48 hours, you get the OT rate. Obviously working an SDO is OT rate as well. Flight credits or half your duty day which ever is more, I know guys at Porter have been asking for that for years as it is beneficial during IROPS and poor weather days with lots of delays and cancellations (November-May at YTZ). If you're willing to work OT it would be no problem to crack 6 figures.

Also I believe that Sky wants us to be working 85 a month. If they over hire and everyone is flying 70 hours the company will end up paying more out in payroll. If staffing levels are correct I'm sure we will be flying close to the target of 85 each month.

[Maxpwr]

Ok RR I've had to read your post quite a few times to try to get a grasp on your "funky SR math" issue...

Why would they divide the base of $52000 by 65? We only get overtime after 85 hrs. I don't know about you but my pay stubs (twice a month) have a line of $50.98/hr (base pay) for 42.5 hrs. If I do an overtime day I get a second line just for that $110.97/hr for 4.0hrs (for example). This way I've gotten my base pay and then gotten base+hourly credit x 1.5 for the overtime.

What's the issue with that? Do you understand that the minimum credit guarantee of 65hrs is un-related to the base salary? They could guarantee a minimum of 75 credits and it wouldn't change the way your base is calculated for pay purposes. IF they decided to drop the overtime threshold from 85 to 80 then YES they would have to recalculate the overtime by dividing $52000 by 80 thus giving a higher amount per hour and raising the overtime rate as well.

This is how things work in the real world for salaried employees that can actually get paid overtime. The yearly salary has to get converted to an hourly amount based on a "normal" work week, or month or whatever. In our case our normal work month pay wise is 85hrs. Meaning we get normal pay up to 85hrs then overtime of 1.5 after that. That's why it's divided by 85 not 65.

[Regional Rat]

MP... If your happy with it all, then great be happy. If you miss my point, fine. You see it our way, I'll see it mine.

Just to clarify, the main issue is how time is paid between 80-90 hours... And no, it isn't how it works everywhere. We have a unique situation here at SR in that way have 4 x pay classifications now, when there should just be 2, straight time (inclusive of all) and overtime. The result is that we get short changed from 80-90, hence paid less. Just to put it perspective I showed what ACTUAL financial gain between 65 - 80.

If your happy, ENJOY!!!

[Maxpwr]

In this case it's not about being happy or unhappy. I just don't see how you can calculate it differently. I wholeheartedly agree that it should just be a simple hourly rate but it's not. It may be one day but it's not right now. Based on the way it works now the calculations make perfect sense to me. It's not about Koop-aid, just simple math.

[Regional Rat]

Base + 65 credits
65-80 is $23/hr
80-85 is $46/hr
85-90 is $69/hr
The last 3 should be an hourly, hence short changing us.
Actual O/T doesn't kick in until 90+
Sorry, don't see where I'm wrong?

COO's quote: "In trying to convert our current pay model, we would have to incorporate a very high min guarantee, and a higher hourly rate than our low cost regional competition."

It goes on to justify the new convoluted pay scheme. It all basically says to me, this is how we keep your pay low...

And sorry, I don't have to be happy with that!

[twincomanche]

UR EXACTLY RIGHT!!!! THIS INDUSTRY IS IN A SAD STATE!!!

[GIVCE!]

Wait... SR already has " LOW COST REGIONAL COMPETITION"...? we are all screwed!