Cherokee spins?

[carbeerater]

Are Cherokees rated for intentional spins?

[iflyforpie]

IIRC, some are. I believe the Cherokee 140 is approved for spins. Too lazy to look up the Type Certificate Data Sheet, but the info on specific models would likely be there..... also on the required placards in the aircraft itself.

[slam525i]

Section 2
.25 Placards

Spins are prohibited for normal and utility category.

(I only have manuals for the -161 and-181. Not sure about the other ones.)

[carbeerater]

Ok thanks ifp, I was browsing planes for sale and there seemed to be a great deal on a particular Cherokee in Alberta. I don't think I would want to purchase an aircraft that wasn't rated for spins.

[carbeerater]

Ok thanks for that info slam! No Cherokee for me!

[slam525i]

Carb, I'm a little curious why you want an airplane rated for spins. Are you planning on having it for PPL training? I don't really see any other reason to need a plane that is rated for spinning.

Don't get me wrong, when (and where) I was doing my PPL, spins weren't considered "OMFG! Spins are killer deadly!" I've spun those little 152 and 172 countless times, but now everyone at FTUs treat spins as if they're so dangerous, you are taught only to avoid them (Not sure what the PPL requirements are now. Demo only I think?). Question is, do you really want to spin a plane you own? It does a number on the gyros I'm told. I remember, in the "bad old days", being told "Don't spin in XXX. Its gyro is still good! If you're gonna do a bunch of spins, take YYY instead. Its gyro is crapped out anyway!" If you wanna do it for fun, you really should be looking at something more aerobatic and maybe learn aerobatics properly instead. The PA28 doesn't really spin that easily anyway.

That said, I think it depends on the model of Cherokee. I think some of the -140s are okay for spins (as IFP said. I dunno, never flown the -140). Something about the CG in the other models, and more likely, Piper not wanting the liability.

[carbeerater]

Carb, I'm a little curious why you want an airplane rated for spins. Are you planning on having it for PPL training? I don't really see any other reason to need a plane that is rated for spinning.

Don't get me wrong, when (and where) I was doing my PPL, spins weren't considered "OMFG! Spins are killer deadly!" I've spun those little 152 and 172 hrscountless times, but now everyone at FTUs treat spins as if they're so dangerous, you are taught only to avoid them (Not sure what the PPL requirements are now. Demo only I think?). Question is, do you really want to spin a plane you own? It does a number on the gyros I'm told. I remember, in the "bad old days", being told "Don't spin in XXX. Its gyro is still good! If you're gonna do a bunch of spins, take YYY instead. Its gyro is crapped out anyway!" If you wanna do it for fun, you really should be looking at something more aerobatic and maybe learn aerobatics properly instead. The PA28 doesn't really spin that easily anyway.

That said, I think it depends on the model of Cherokee. I think some of the -140s are okay for spins (as IFP said. I dunno, never flown the -140). Something about the CG in the other models, and more likely, Piper not wanting the liability.

Well, I'm looking at an entry level/first airplane. I would love to be able to afford something with a little more capability like a super decathalon or spitfite but $$$ is a factor! I am a cpl so not for training, more for practice. I have had a great deal of spin training but am nervous about spinning some of the higher time Cessnas that I've flown (10000+hrs). Also most rental agreements prohibit spins without an instructor... $70/hr I'd rather not spend.

I have always enjoyed spins and really couldn't give two farts in a windstorm about gyros! I'd be happy with a basic vfr machine with reasonable cross country abilities and the option to go out and watch the ground go 'round, hence the inquiry as to the spinability (is that a word? ) of the Cherokee.

And yes most people recoil in horror when presented with the possibility of doing spins! I have flown with instructors who were ashen after just one; I, on the other hand can't wait to do the next one...

[Shiny Side Up]

Section 2
.25 Placards

Spins are prohibited for normal and utility category.

(I only have manuals for the -161 and-181. Not sure about the other ones.)

The "1" models are the tapered wing models that weren't spinable. The Hershey bar winged fixed gear ones all are. 140, 150, 160 and 180.

[fish4life]

Citabria's can be bought for cheap if you want aerobatic ish

[Colonel Sanders]

I will be attacked for this, but before
you do acro in a Citabria, please inspect
the wooden spar very, very carefully for
cracking, esp around the strut pickup.

I strongly recommend replacing the wings
with the much more rigid metal wings.

It is very difficult to do acro in a Citabria,
which is really just a Champ that someone
pushed some paper on.

[PilotDAR]

It is very difficult to do acro in a Citabria,
which is really just a Champ that someone
pushed some paper on.

Perfect, so when you succeed, the skills will really be there!

Thread drift.....

Do your homework on the reparability of Cherokees before purchasing, and have a very comprehensive pre purchase inspection on the one you're considering. From my experience doing some repair approvals on some, and not being able to on a couple of others (leaving them permanently grounded) I am leery of them from a long term maintenance point of view. I have been told by Piper fairly directly that there are some models they do not wish to support with parts. I quote the Piper tech rep: (spoken to me, with respect to a Seneca) "Sir that's a 40 year old plane, we have not seen it in 40 years, and we don't want it in the air any more." That rather alarms me from a long term product support perspective. Unlike most Cessnas, low wing Pipers employed special extrusions for some parts (wing spars), which are either obtained as parts (some can't be), or you are grounded. Cessnas mostly use built up sheet metal, which can be reproduced if needed. Cessna also provides more comprehensive structural repair instructions for their aircraft, allowing them to be returned to service. A hail damaged Cherokee is technically unairworthy, as Piper does not offer a definition for negligible damage (which does not required repair). Just do your homework to assure you'll have a plane that you can maintain airworthy.

Returning to the thread, I applaud your desire to maintain spinning skills. It is unfortunate that so few models are spin approved. I do not have concerns spinning well maintained high time metal spin approved aircraft. I do agree that older wood spar planes should be aerobatted with caution.

[I_Drive_Planes]

Well, I'm looking at an entry level/first airplane. I would love to be able to afford something with a little more capability like a super decathalon or spitfite but $$$ is a factor! I am a cpl so not for training, more for practice. I have had a great deal of spin training but am nervous about spinning some of the higher time Cessnas that I've flown (10000+hrs). Also most rental agreements prohibit spins without an instructor... $70/hr I'd rather not spend.

I have always enjoyed spins and really couldn't give two farts in a windstorm about gyros! I'd be happy with a basic vfr machine with reasonable cross country abilities

My Cherokee 180 is not certified for spins. However in terms of capability it easily bests both the Super Decathalon and the Spitfire, it will carry 4 adults and full fuel! It also has very reasonable cross country abilities. I'm writing this post from the Trump Tower in Las Vegas, I flew in to KVGT yesterday.

Watching the earth spin round and round is fun, but I don't find it as thrilling as watching unfamiliar country slip by under the wing.

My advice to you (as a newly minted airplane owner) is that if you want to do aerobatics go and buy an acro machine. If you want an all rounder don't exclude a type because it isn't certified to perform one maneuver.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Only the Cherokee 140 is certified for spins. The details are in the flight manual supplement

[schnitzel2k3]

Go get a Pitts and have some real fun.

[carbeerater]

I will be attacked for this, but before
you do acro in a Citabria, please inspect
the wooden spar very, very carefully for
cracking, esp around the strut pickup.

I strongly recommend replacing the wings
with the much more rigid metal wings.

It is very difficult to do acro in a Citabria,
which is really just a Champ that someone
pushed some paper on.

Why isn't the scout rated for aerobatics?
Aren't they the same plane?
I thought the scout had metal spars too? (Standard)

[carbeerater]

Go get a Pitts and have some real fun.

That sounds awesome and I would love to do some serious aerobatic training but I hear the cross country performance is marginal

Maybe this deserves a new thread but what would be the "go to"/ "do everything" plane of choice for most?

Criteria: Fully aerobatic
Functional cross country (2 up with let's say minimum 300nm range)
Float and ski capable as a bonus?

[iflyforpie]

Why isn't the scout rated for aerobatics?
Aren't they the same plane?
I thought the scout had metal spars too? (Standard)

Again, it has to do with paper pushing.

The Scout has the wing certified to the same ultimate load, but the max Gs are less, so it can have a higher gross weight.

It kind of sucks somedays flying a 150 HP 7GCBC with a 1600 lb gross that can go upside down when all you want to do is carry a couple hundred extra pounds of camping gear like your buddy does is his Super Cub.

[iflyforpie]

Back on topic. As PilotDAR said, the support for Cherokees is not as good as Cessna, and spam can Pipers are not as generic as most other light aircraft in terms of parts. I have a -235 I take care of that has a bad shimmy. Need a new nose wheel steering arm. $1800, made to order, 120 day lead time.

That being said, most of the Cherokee series is dead simple mechanically.... and since they weren't as popular for training and aerial work, most are low hours and low priced. As long as it has been flown frequently (most airports have at least one Cherokee that is a permanent landmark, run away as fast as you can), they are great airplanes. Good Lycoming engines, minimal parts count, very simple systems (only a couple of simple fuel pumps added in comparison to a 172--and no flap motor), very light weight and usually a bit more useful load than a comparable Cessna.

Lots of things I didn't like about the Cherokee though. The one tiny door. Having to climb up the wing to get in. No shade. No big windows to open. Poor view down. No place to park hangarage helpers like boats and convertibles under the wings. Anemic control response. Poor climb rate. Unimpressive cruise (all spam can Piper owners add knots to their true airspeed.... I never found them any faster than any Cessna product with the same horsepower).

[Shiny Side Up]

Only the Cherokee 140 is certified for spins. The details are in the flight manual supplement

My Cherokee 180 book says otherwise.

Edit: If you ant an oddball cross country/ acro plane, get a Musketeer C23, has the better engine, they do nice aileron rolls.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Only the Cherokee 140 is certified for spins. The details are in the flight manual supplement

My Cherokee 180 book says otherwise.

Well yah learn something new every single day