To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Well, we'll see what happens the moment Sunwing hires a TFW captain after telling seasonal Canadians pilots it hired as First Officers that it did not hire Seasonal Captains.

They do hire seasonal Captains. They just do not hire Canadian Seasonal captains.

[Rogerdodger2]

Again you clearly don't understand that contracted foreign workers are not employees or you're simply twisting things around again to suit your position. Sad........

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Transport Canada Regulations only allow Sunwing ACPs to give PPCs to Sunwing employees.
Transport Canada Regulations only allow Sunwing ACP to give line checks to Sunwing employees.
Transport Canada Regulations only allow Sunwing employees inside Sunwing flight decks during revenue flights.

So according to Transport Canada, either the TFW pilots are employees of Sunwing or they are not allowed any of the above.

But of course, who is checking...........

[Rogerdodger2]

So by your logic a pilot who contracts him self out to and operator for three months, has no benefits and has to remit his own cpp etc. can't be checked by the companies ACP because he's not an employee? Any pilot who is going to fly an operators A/C can be checked by an ACP, regardless of their work status. If they are going to fly the operators A/C then yes TC considers them an employee. That's TCs definition of an employee not the CRAs. TC doesn't regulate employee status. Don't confuse the two. TFW are not employees they are contracted out to SW by their employer to do work for SW. Your interpretation of "employee" way too literal. If it were considered to be as literal as you'd like it lawyers, TC and the CTA would have stopped it. Then again your smarter than all those people and regulators.

[rudder]

Once again, back to the real numbers as opposed to the rhetoric or opinion.

SW will operate 37 aircraft this winter.

Approximately 210 pilots will be permanent SW employees with full benefits.

50-55 First Officers will be seasonal SW employees with no vacation, pension, health, dental, or disability coverage.

120 pilots (including at least 60 CAPT) will be TFW.

Approximately 70-80 more foreign pilots (including 35-40 CAPT) will be operating wet lease aircraft.

SW staffed 4 aircraft in Europe for summer 2014/ 8 aircraft in Canada.

Do with it what you will but these are the real numbers plus or minus single digit corrections.

[FICU]

I wonder what costs Sunwing more... paying for temporary contracted foreign Captains and all their expenses(car/accommodations) or paying temporary Canadian Captains with no ancillary expenses.

Or... does TUI cover most of the expenses?

[timel]

I guess TUI must be covering partially training costs or sharing them with sunwing.
If it is for 120 pilots it is interresting money to save.

[rudder]

SW handed out 37 B73C type endorsements in the fall of 2013 to the seasonal FO's with no training bond required. Of those 37, at best 20 will continue with SW either as permanent or returning seasonal with the rest having already resigned or not returning for winter 2014/2015. SW is planning to train 48 more seasonal FO's in August/September 2014. Once again, no training bond.

If you are looking for a B73C type endorsement clearly this is where to go. At $25K per pilot, it is not a small expense to SW considering a nearly 50% non-return rate and some pilots resigning within weeks of their PPC.

Is this model sustainable? Only time will tell. A larger permanent SW pilot component with more winter Captaincies for SW pilots would seem to be a more desirable template vs status quo for both economic and political reasons.

My bet is that change is coming. Some will be happy. Some will not.

[GRK]

When you say some resigned within weeks of a PPC, is that two or ten or what? Why did they resign? Was it to move on to a better airline? Gotta be a fault with the interview system at SW maybe? Not catching the "run n gun" PPC stealers!?

[fruz]

I don't think he said "some resigned within weeks of of a PPC". Some of the seasonal hires opted to leave when the threat of summer layoffs loomed. They worked their full term or most of it. Cant blame them really - everyone wants full time, year round work not part time. When they were hired the prospect of being hired on year round was good possibility.

[rudder]

A couple of the seasonal pilots left within weeks of PPC to go to AC and elsewhere. Most that accepted seasonal employment at SW were either on LOA from a full-time job or hoping for conversion to full-time at SW or still actively looking for full-time employment elsewhere. 10 more left prior to contract expiry when it became obvious that a permanent job offer from SW was not assured. Several permanent SW pilots also resigned when the threat of downgrades and layoffs loomed.

It will be no different with the seasonal pilots added for winter 2014/2015. That is the nature of the model and that is the reason that the model will eventually change. SW was fortunate that the spring Purolator/KFC announcement and the spring Canjet announcement created a larger and more experienced pool of applicants for the seasonal positions for 2014/2015. But pilots will still be looking for permanent employment and if that does not present itself at SW then they will seek it elsewhere.

[OPEC6-Heavy]

I wonder what costs Sunwing more... paying for temporary contracted foreign Captains and all their expenses(car/accommodations) or paying temporary Canadian Captains with no ancillary expenses.
Or... does TUI cover most of the expenses?

TUI covers nothing, SWG pays for all crew and Aircraft from TUI at market rates. Same rates as Canjet payed TUI for 2 B737's and German Pilots in YYZ last winter to do flying for Air Transat. Money is not really the issue with regards to training new guys vs expenses/accommodations and salaries of TUI pilots (more $$$ than SWG), it really boils down to logistics in training over a 3 month period and a major bottle neck in line-indoc if all are initial type ratings. Simple as that, it's physically impossible.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Money is not really the issue with regards to training new guys vs expenses/accommodations and salaries of TUI pilots (more $$$ than SWG), it really boils down to logistics in training over a 3 month period and a major bottle neck in line-indoc if all are initial type ratings. Simple as that, it's physically impossible.

The way to do it is:
1) not to lay off people Sunwing trained the previous season and keep them on payrol for the next season
2) hire and train early, not on Aug 1st

Sunwing requested 120 TFW this year. If these had been Canadians, at say $70,000 each, it would have cost Sunwing an extra 4.2 million to keep them on payroll year round ($70K x 120 for six months).

This is peanuts compared to Sunwing profits. They announced that they made 71 million dollars in profits in 2013 and expected to make even more in 2014.

http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie/tr ... soleil.php

If they were forced to have 100% Canadian pilots (except for the foreign wet-lease crews), this would barely make a dent in sunwing's profitability. It would however provide year round employment to at least 120 extra Canadian 737 drivers.......

So this is the solution.
One cannot say that this solution is too costly and at the same time claim that hiring TFW pilots instead o full time Canadian is not a cost issue.

[infiniteregulus]

+1

[Mr. 3Green]

Thank you Gilles and everyone else involved for you effort on this matter. Canadian pilots will be forever indebted to you guys. Lets get together and help this cause.

[Mr. North]

For all the complaining pilots are known for, few of us ever do anything to better our profession or to look out for our peers. Thank you Gilles, you are a man for others.

It would be nice to know how many people applied in total and heard nothing.

[snoopy]

I'm in.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I don't think this is going to work. Canjet pilots for the most part, are not on board.

I'm pulling out.

[Mr. 3Green]

Wow... fellow pilots try to stick their head out for people who are laid off, and there's no cooperation. Interesting industry we have here.

[Mr. North]

I don't think this is going to work. Canjet pilots for the most part, are not on board.

I'm pulling out.

What about all the other non-canjet pilots who applied? Surely there must enough of us to make a difference?!

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Sunwing re-posted the same ad for 145 seasonal pilots today

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 7&t=102796

Pleas note that this ad is for 145 "Pilots" and that means both Captains and First Officers. The pay is between $60 and $215 /hour with 80 or 90 hours per month guaranteed, according to the month. $215 an hour on a 90 hour month is $19350 per month gross. Not bad at all. All Canjet Captains who lost their jobs should apply.

But its likely these Canjet Captains will only be offered the $60/hour First Officer Seasonal position $5400/month gross.

The seasonal Captains will likely all be Europeans.

[aycarumba]

What is going on with sunwing? Seems like they started a ground school already and took the ads out a few weeks ago. Then the add reappeared on a SUNDAY AFTERNOON????? I'm pretty sure if they just click on their email there is already 3000+ applicants already, why do they want more resumes????

[infiniteregulus]

I know of at least 60 high-time, non type-rated pilots who've applied, including myself.