IFR clearances and FSS
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore
IFR clearances and FSS
When reading back a clearance with a sid, you only need to read back the sid and Squak code. However when you get a clearance from FSS, ie YYG, they make you read back everything including "Pearson AIRPORT". How come FSS wants a read back above and beyond what is required by the AIM?
Re: IFR clearances and FSS
Actually Bede, all you need is the call sign and the code, not necessary to readback the SID.
To answer your question, the above only applies at a controlled airport. An airport with an FSS has a control zone, but is not a controlled airport.
To answer your question, the above only applies at a controlled airport. An airport with an FSS has a control zone, but is not a controlled airport.
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Justjohn
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS
Because the FSS specialist is Not creating the clearance. They are only relaying a clearance from an IFR controller at centre. If the IFR controller said 'Pearson Airport' the FSS specialist is mandated to read that to you And get that in the read back. Otherwise the FSS person is modifying the clearance.
My wife is an FSS specialist and it is her biggest source of frustration when dealing with pilots. She knows you mean YYZ, but if the clearance she got from centre says 'Pearson International Airport' than that is what she has to get a read back on. Tape checks are done often and that particular item is what they're looking for because it's an easy strike.
I didn't know this either and thought unkind things about a lot of FSS personnel over the years.
My wife is an FSS specialist and it is her biggest source of frustration when dealing with pilots. She knows you mean YYZ, but if the clearance she got from centre says 'Pearson International Airport' than that is what she has to get a read back on. Tape checks are done often and that particular item is what they're looking for because it's an easy strike.
I didn't know this either and thought unkind things about a lot of FSS personnel over the years.
Flying is better than walking. Walking is better than running. Running is better than crawling. All of these however, are better than extraction by a Med-Evac, even if this is technically a form of flying.
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leftoftrack
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS
They can be dick's about that. Just keep repeating the clearance back without airport till they either let it go or they loose their minds. It's fun and funny. If.your in a hurry after 5 minutes tell them you'll just pick it up airborne.
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Justjohn
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS
leftoftrack wrote:They can be dick's about that. Just keep repeating the clearance back without airport till they either let it go or they loose their minds. It's fun and funny. If.your in a hurry after 5 minutes tell them you'll just pick it up airborne.
Unless you are on a VFR departure in VMC, it's a CAR's violation. What a rookie move. Regardless, is it just too much to read back a clearance properly? It's a little childish to make other peoples work difficult just for you're own entertainment.
Flying is better than walking. Walking is better than running. Running is better than crawling. All of these however, are better than extraction by a Med-Evac, even if this is technically a form of flying.
Re: IFR clearances and FSS
Justjohn wrote:Unless you are on a VFR departure in VMC, it's a CAR's violation.
Let me guess, it also invalidates your insurance?
Which CAR would that be exactly?
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Justjohn
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS
ahramin wrote:Justjohn wrote:Unless you are on a VFR departure in VMC, it's a CAR's violation.
Let me guess, it also invalidates your insurance?
Which CAR would that be exactly?[/quote
The one about departing IFR without a valid clearance ....
Flying is better than walking. Walking is better than running. Running is better than crawling. All of these however, are better than extraction by a Med-Evac, even if this is technically a form of flying.
Re: IFR clearances and FSS
As others have tried to explain leftoftrack, they aren't being dicks (plural, I'm not sure what of Dick's we'd have a problem with). They are doing their job properly. In this profession, details matter.leftoftrack wrote:They can be dick's about that. Just keep repeating the clearance back without airport till they either let it go or they loose their minds.
Re: IFR clearances and FSS
Exactly. The question was, which CAR would that be? Number?Justjohn wrote:The one about departing IFR without a valid clearance ....
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Justjohn
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS
ahramin wrote:Exactly. The question was, which CAR would that be? Number?Justjohn wrote:The one about departing IFR without a valid clearance ....
602.31
Flying is better than walking. Walking is better than running. Running is better than crawling. All of these however, are better than extraction by a Med-Evac, even if this is technically a form of flying.
Re: IFR clearances and FSS
No clearance accepted, no violation.(b) comply with all of the air traffic control clearances received and accepted by the pilot-in-command
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Justjohn
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS
ahramin wrote:No clearance accepted, no violation.(b) comply with all of the air traffic control clearances received and accepted by the pilot-in-command
Are you for real? You're ranked as a moderator, so I assume that you have a working knowledge of aviation in Canada. Just in case you don't, let me provide the complete quote.
An ATC clearance shall be obtained before takeoff from any point within controlled airspace or before entering controlled airspace for flight under IFR or during IMC. A clearance received by a pilot must be read back to the controller (CAR 602.31),
In this case, the read back is accomplished thru an intermediary. I guess if you felt it necessary, you could could look up the number of the ACC and try to contact the controller at their station and do it that way, but this is the way the air traffic system is set up to work in Canada.
Flying is better than walking. Walking is better than running. Running is better than crawling. All of these however, are better than extraction by a Med-Evac, even if this is technically a form of flying.
Re: IFR clearances and FSS
If it's IMC conditions yes but if you have an IFR flight plan you can depart VFR and get a clearance in the air
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Justjohn
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS
If it's IMC conditions yes but if you have an IFR flight plan you can depart VFR and get a clearance in the air
EXACTLY!
Unless you are on a VFR departure in VMC, it's a CAR's violation.[/quote
EXACTLY!
Unless you are on a VFR departure in VMC, it's a CAR's violation.[/quote
Flying is better than walking. Walking is better than running. Running is better than crawling. All of these however, are better than extraction by a Med-Evac, even if this is technically a form of flying.
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Justjohn
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS
You what guy's? I tried to answer the OP's question the best that I could.
I've been flying airplanes for ~30 years and have been a 705 captain for a fairly long time. My wife is a NAV Canada FSS specialist. I thought I would have some genuine insight to the OP's question. You can all go figure it out for yourselves.
Some of you folks make it awfully hard to defend our 'profession' to the wife and her NAV Canada friends. The people in this industry who really think we are professionals are mostly other pilots.
And now I will expect to be flamed away by somebody 'glad' that they are not my F/O. Well, I would like to respond.
ME TOO!
The airline I work for is fairly well known. It respects the CAR's, and is very SOP driven. There is no room for too clever antics that could result in violations or a Cadors. The DFO doesn't want an official, or unofficial, call from the ATC station manager complaining that his pilots are asshats.
I've been flying airplanes for ~30 years and have been a 705 captain for a fairly long time. My wife is a NAV Canada FSS specialist. I thought I would have some genuine insight to the OP's question. You can all go figure it out for yourselves.
Some of you folks make it awfully hard to defend our 'profession' to the wife and her NAV Canada friends. The people in this industry who really think we are professionals are mostly other pilots.
And now I will expect to be flamed away by somebody 'glad' that they are not my F/O. Well, I would like to respond.
ME TOO!
The airline I work for is fairly well known. It respects the CAR's, and is very SOP driven. There is no room for too clever antics that could result in violations or a Cadors. The DFO doesn't want an official, or unofficial, call from the ATC station manager complaining that his pilots are asshats.
Flying is better than walking. Walking is better than running. Running is better than crawling. All of these however, are better than extraction by a Med-Evac, even if this is technically a form of flying.
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leftoftrack
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS
why is it important to specify whether you're talking about the airport the beacon or the VOR?
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Justjohn
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS
leftoftrack wrote:why is it important to specify whether you're talking about the airport the beacon or the VOR?
Because if you have a comm failure on departure, and you are IMC, and your clearance limit is the the Airport, the Beacon, or the VOR it has different implications on your course of action and the protected airspace that ATC will provide you.
Flying is better than walking. Walking is better than running. Running is better than crawling. All of these however, are better than extraction by a Med-Evac, even if this is technically a form of flying.
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single_swine_herder
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS
Thought they stopped issuing clearances "short of destination" a decade or two ago..... and that a place of landing had to be designated in the clearance routing.
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Justjohn
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS
single_swine_herder wrote:Thought they stopped issuing clearances "short of destination" a decade or two ago..... and that a place of landing had to be designated in the clearance routing.
Nope, I often (several time a month) revive clearances with the VOR as the clearance limit. Regardless, it does not relive the pilot of the requirement to read back the clearance with the clearance limit in it.
As an example Toronto airport could be Toronto international, Downsview, or Toronto Island to name a few.
Flying is better than walking. Walking is better than running. Running is better than crawling. All of these however, are better than extraction by a Med-Evac, even if this is technically a form of flying.
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leftoftrack
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS
So if you have a comm failure and it's not clear where you are going say YEG or CYEG how are your actions going to differ?Justjohn wrote:leftoftrack wrote:why is it important to specify whether you're talking about the airport the beacon or the VOR?
Because if you have a comm failure on departure, and you are IMC, and your clearance limit is the the Airport, the Beacon, or the VOR it has different implications on your course of action and the protected airspace that ATC will provide you.
