Should I withdraw from Seneca's Aviation degree program?

[zulutime]

Not sure what all the fuss is about crosswind landing limitations at Seneca. A C172 is rated for a 15 kt crosswind through it's certification process. However, I don't believe I have ever seen a student at our local school ever doing circuits with such a crosswind (true 90 degree 15 kts crosswind). I would guess all schools have a crosswind limitation for their students. Same for ceiling and visibility requirements for that matter. They are higher than what is legal. A 777 captain once told me he believes in setting people up for success, not failure. I would think that is what flight schools are doing too (not to mention the insurance aspect of all this). Does anyone know if the school limits higher crosswind landings even with the instructor on board?

[Cat Driver]

Cessna's crosswind number is not limiting, it is demomstrated and repersents the ability of the average PPL to safely fly the airplane.

As to any training organization supposedly offering top of the line training why would they set their limits lower than the manufacturers demonstrated limit?

If you owned a commercial flying operation would you be comfortable hiring someone who was trained to a skill level lower than what a PPl should be capable of?

I sure wouldn't.

[zulutime]

Cessna's crosswind number is not limiting, it is demomstrated and repersents the ability of the average PPL to safely fly the airplane.

As to any training organization supposedly offering top of the line training why would they set their limits lower than the manufacturers demonstrated limit?

If you owned a commercial flying operation would you be comfortable hiring someone who was trained to a skill level lower than wahe a PPl should be capable of?

I sure wouldn't.

I was going to mention in my post that the Cessna's crosswind number is not limiting but rather demonstrated by a test pilot but didn't think that was necessary. I see you've added that in so thank you for those who didn't know this. As stated, I don't think any flight school would allow a student to go do circuits with a true 15 kts crosswind. Maybe I'm wrong. If there are current or former students who have been signed off for circuits with such a crosswind feel free to post. I'd be interested to know how many hours you had in your log book at the time. Getting your PPL is a "starting point" for future learning. Not worht much more than that IMO. They don't send PPL students up to do arobatics either but that doesn't stop pilots from achieving success in that field later in their flying career.

[Cat Driver]

One would like to think that a flight training school that is training pilots to fly commercially would train to a higher standard than a PPL.

[rxl]

Cessna's crosswind number is not limiting, it is demomstrated and repersents the ability of the average PPL to safely fly the airplane.

As to any training organization supposedly offering top of the line training why would they set their limits lower than the manufacturers demonstrated limit?

If you owned a commercial flying operation would you be comfortable hiring someone who was trained to a skill level lower than wahe a PPl should be capable of?

I sure wouldn't.

I was going to mention in my post that the Cessna's crosswind number is not limiting but rather demonstrated by a test pilot but didn't think that was necessary. I see you've added that in so thank you for those who didn't know this. As stated, I don't think any flight school would allow a student to go do circuits with a true 15 kts crosswind. Maybe I'm wrong. If there are current or former students who have been signed off for circuits with such a crosswind feel free to post. I'd be interested to know how many hours you had in your log book at the time. Getting your PPL is a "starting point" for future learning. Not worht much more than that IMO. They don't send PPL students up to do arobatics either but that doesn't stop pilots from achieving success in that field later in their flying career.

"Not limiting". It might be worth considering exactly what that means.

I think that in the unfortunate situation where someone attempts to operate in conditions that exceed that "not limiting" number and loses control of the airplane resulting in bent metal and/or injured people, to the courts and to the insurance companies, that number then becomes a very real limit.

[Cat Driver]

So in the new world of professional pilots if your ability to fly an airplane is limited to the crosswind number the manafacturers suggest and you find your self in a situation where the cross wind is more than that number you just park the airplane in the air and wait until the wind drops?

The world of aviation sure has changed.

[rxl]

That's the reality where I work. The "not limiting" crosswind component (27kts.) for my airplane as taken from the manufacturer's Aircraft Flight Manual has been adopted in our company Aircraft Operating Manuals as the maximum (steady state) crosswind component approved for takeoff and landing on an uncontaminated runway.

[Cat Driver]

So what do you do if the X/wind is more than what is in your manual and it is the only place you can land?

By the way for really difficult strong cross winds give me an ice runway any day because it is better than cross wind landing gear.

[rxl]

You had better have a good alternate.
I think that diversions due to X-wind are actually quite rare.

The numbers for wet and contaminated runways are lower, so the days of a good 6 wheel drift along the centre-line are pretty much over.

[flightsimmer]

The maximum wind limit at Seneca applies to people who are flying solo before they get their PPL. Not too sure after that.

I've already dropped out of the program and decided to start my flight training asap as money allows. I'm taking the ground school portion at Toronto Airways and will begin the flight training soon at Canadian Flyers in Markham. I know the ground school bit can be done online for $50 cheaper but I prefer to be present within a learning environment. Unless anyone recommends a different school, this is how I'm proceeding with my initial training.

[rxl]

Hi flightsimmer, sorry to take your thread off course.

There has been plenty of great advice offered here.
A couple of things I might add - if you can swing the finances and time commitment, go at your training full time. Fly at least 3 or 4 times a week. You may end up saving yourself some money in the long run since you probably won't need as much review along the way.
I personally prefer the classroom environment for the groundschool side of the learning experience because of the social aspect of it and you might just learn some valuable stuff from the other class members.
Above all else, enjoy the ride and never stop learning.

Good luck to you.

rxl

[Bede]

I always cringe a bit when pilots want a university degree (especially engineering) for something to fall back on. Older workers with experience are having a hard enough time finding work after a lay off. If companies aren't hiring older workers with degrees and experience, why would they hire a pilot with a business degree 20 years ago and no business experience?

[iflyforpie]

I always cringe a bit when pilots want a university degree (especially engineering) for something to fall back on. Older workers with experience are having a hard enough time finding work after a lay off. If companies aren't hiring older workers with degrees and experience, why would they hire a pilot with a business degree 20 years ago and no business experience?

A fall-back is usually a short-term thing. Say you lose your medical, can't get a job flying, get sick of eating KD five days a week because you can't advance to a more lucrative position, or just get tired of aviation. I don't think it would apply to someone who has 20 year in the industry... and something like engineering might be helpful later on.

Plus, typically you would (hopefully) pick a vocation that is in demand and perhaps be a little more mobile.... ....the older experienced guy is probably not willing to uproot a family and head to Ft Mac.... but the younger guy might.

Better than putting five years into aviation and having nothing to show except unrelated work experience.

[Legacy14]

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[AirBNBCan]

So this going to be a fairly large post but if makes you avoid the $40,000 debt and the 3 years I wasted, it will be definitely worth your time.

First off a little history, I've been in this program for 3 years and I was kicked out 6 months ago (they said I was overhours and I didn't even get my PPL yet). For the first year they accept 130+ students and cut it down to less than 40 by the time you graduate. Its unfortunate, but they let through too many students and can't keep up the flight line. Since there is so much backlog on students progress and they want to get rid of you as soon as you graduate, they try to kick students out for any reason they find (they even use the mistakes you do as a student against you).

I was kicked out for going overhours. they give you 37 and additional 4 hours to get to your PPL. They "let" you pay for additional 10 hours for 250 an hour, but they can decide they don't want to give you that chance. Another problem with this program is that they include incomplete flights into your total time. I flew a few times and found something wrong with the aircraft in the air or that the weather started to get bad so I had return to the airport. It would make sense for a student to get the time for free, since they would have to repeat the lesson to continue. But the additional time you need comes out of your pocket. I had to repeat 5 hours of lessons in order to get towards my PPL, so you can imagine the additional 4 hours did nothing and I had to start paying for lessons.

They also don't take into account some students didn't get to fly for up to 2 months and had to repeat lessons to get back to PPL standards. It sucks for them because they were setup to fail and they really didn't care. They accused them of not caring enough to practice at the sim, eventhough being in the sim and flying in the plane is obviously very different.

It may seem like I'm raging, but honestly, I never regretted anything as much as wasting time and money in the program. The huge problem is the management at Seneca. McMullen, Hause, Godfrey, alot of the instructors and duty instructors need to be removed before the program can return to its former 'glory'.

Several students have been caught smoking weed and TC (Transport Canada) was aware of the situation, but they allow those students to continue and did nothing to make changes. They only had a meeting where they threatened students with drug tests that would come out of your pocket, but they did nothing to reassure that changes are being made. Some students had minor accidents, which is fairly normal in the learning process, and they make it seem like its okay, but they use that against you in the future. I've heard some students felt so betrayed when they kept bringing up their accident and how they shouldn't be allowed to continue. The program hasn't always been this way, it just became a money grab way for the school to pay off the move to Peterborough from Buttonville.

In regards to the degree, sure its nice to have, but its not a requirement. Flight hours matter more into your selection than having a degree. If you really want a degree, you can get any degree and go to a flight school. You would save SO much money and not have to deal with the threats of getting kicked out like I did. Not all of the program is bad. There is a lot of awesome professors you get to meet. They are mostly understanding of the system and you can do well and get by fairly easy if you listen to them and do your homework.

In regards to Jazz, the chances of getting into it is nearly 0. The only person I know was a student few years ahead of me, who aced all her classes and received all the awards, but had to wait a full year before being allowed in. Unless you're that kind of student, it ain't worth attempting.

As for me, I continued to a flight school and got my PPL within weeks and I'm looking towards getting my CPL. I'm doing part time studying for a bachelors degree in business admin this September and I never felt more excited about flying than ever. I feel so much more relaxed as I no longer feel like I'm threatened to get kicked out like I did at Seneca.

If you're planning to go to Seneca, all I have to say is find another program... Waterloo, Confederate, Sue St Marie, or go to a flight school. I didn't go to any other school so I don't really know how it works there but I just know that as a student, I wouldn't go to Seneca and save yourself the pain I experienced.

[dogdriver69]

Just clearing up some things in this bash thread:

- My crosswind limit is 15kts
- Person above I think nearly wrote off a cessna in a 3kt breeze and after 3 years of not being able to land was cut "unfairly"
- Seems bitter because according to him any other aviation college in ontario is just great
- Somehow flight training elsewhere with a degree on the side is cheaper than 55k?
- Prospects for jazz actually look pretty good this year

Cheers

[CanadianAussie]

Alright so I want to clarify some more things too on top of what dogdriver69 has stated.
- The 5 knot crosswind limit is just a starting limit for pre-PPL students solo until a crosswind flight.
- The crosswind limit will initially go up to 10 knots with pre-PPL and up to the demonstrated crosswind for the plane in the POH (15 Cessna, 17 Bonanza, etc).
- Keep in mind these limits are only for solo/mutual flying in the planes, dual flights are limited only to what the instructors deems appropriate.
- Also for the post before claiming you are pushed into flights after a couple months of no flying, this is untrue as a re-currency flight would be flown before hand if that were to happen.
- As for the Baron flown gear down in circuits, it's possible they did that some time ago, but the current SOP's word-for-word are,
"Note: For continuous circuits the landing gear will be selected up after every takeoff. The landing gear
will be selected down during the Before Landing Check. To permit adequate gear motor cooling, the
maximum number of consecutive circuits should be limited to 3."
- Now in terms of Bonanza flying which has the same Note, we can either: fly 1 circuit with the gear down, complete a full stop landing, or exit the circuit and re-enter. 3 more circuits can then be completed after one of those has been completed.
- Accepting 130 students in the first year and down to 40 for graduating is approximately true. From my experience, you lose about half of the student in the first year prior to the flying in just the academic classes alone. Once the flight line starts, you will lose a few people to the PPL written, and slowly the few people who cannot fly even with all their effort will be weeded out after many chances. If you are keeping your reputation up as a student and showing your efforts and doing your best, they shouldn't "kick you out". The staff of Seneca truly want everyone to succeed, but when they see people acting lazy, not following the rules, while still unable to fly, their mercy is understandably not there. Sure I've had many friends fail through the program, even from academics 2 years into the program, but in my opinion a lot of those people (not everyone) did not have the skill, motivation, or heart cut out for for flying and academics at Seneca.
-The last thing I would like to mention regarding the FMS and xwind flying post earlier, is that we are trained on the CRJ-200 FMS and have 40 hours in a non-moving CRJ-200 sim on campus that provides us with experience in a more complex aircraft, as well as experience with multi-crew flying and CRM with instructors currently in the industry flying all over. Apart from the CRJ FMS we also have courses on advanced avionics such as FMS and other systems found on more complex aircraft.
- Current Seneca Student

[JBI]

So this going to be a fairly large post ...

If you're planning to go to Seneca, all I have to say is find another program... Waterloo, Confederate, Sue St Marie, or go to a flight school. I didn't go to any other school so I don't really know how it works there but I just know that as a student, I wouldn't go to Seneca and save yourself the pain I experienced.

While I'm all for open and honest opinions about a particular program and flight school (I certainly had things that I didn't like about Seneca when I was there 15 years ago - i.e. the switch in calculus professors that resulted in 50% of the class failing or getting a D, for example), you may want to consider editing your post. First, naming individuals has always been prohibited on this board. Second, though it is a minor error, it is spelled "Sault Ste. Marie".

I'm sorry to hear that Seneca didn't work out for you and you feel your time was wasted. College aviation programs are not for everyone - it definitely doesn't mean that you won't be a good pilot. I know a number of folks who had to withdraw from Seneca and have had a successful aviation career.

Are the sims at Seneca still free for the students unlimited use? Once you get to other flight schools and have to pay for each hour in the sim, you'll be kicking yourself that you didn't use the sim more with respect to the instrument flying. Sims do make a huge difference. When it comes to hands and feet, the aircraft is definitely different than the sim. It sounds like this may have been where you faced your challenges, and I agree, the subsidized colleges (including Confederation and Sault) do not provide a much leeway for getting extra hours. However, back at Buttonville at least, many students would rent from Toronto Airways on their own time to fly for fun, take friends up, and get a little extra practice.

When you're at a "pay as you go" flight school, you get more of an opportunity to keep working on areas that may not be your strength. With the subsidized colleges, not so much.

I'm not sure what you're referring to as the programs "former glory" though. They were way quicker to kick out students back then, which seems to be your beef.

Anyways, best of luck in your future endeavours - but burning bridges this early in your career is not the best start.

[ariiie]

Hey guys, Just wanna know what was yall's high school average that got you in a flight program like Seneca