Another on board event...

[DanWEC]

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/news/winds ... om-calgary

Another guy escorted off a plane, from Calgary to Windsor. No diversion this time.

Are these events increasing in frequency, or only in response? Barring neither, is it just more media exposure making it seem that way?

[timel]

Is it westjet encore? kd

I think every managers wants to do more money, pay less ...and people want to buy cheaper in an everyday more expensive world.

Who is the loosing one? M. Quality

[Broken Slinky]

I was taxi'n by that plane and got to watch the show. Assumed it was just another drunk passenger heading out on vacation. Didn't see any CF-18s so that was disappointing.

[timel]

Answer here :
http://o.canada.com/travel/airline-pass ... or-legroom

By Scott Mayerowitz

NEW YORK — Squeezed into tighter and tighter spaces, airline passengers appear to be rebelling, taking their frustrations out on other fliers.

Three U.S. flights made unscheduled landings in the past eight days after passengers got into fights over the ability to recline their seats. Disputes over a tiny bit of personal space might seem petty, but for passengers whose knees are already banging into tray tables, every inch counts.

“Seats are getting closer together,” says Sara Nelson, president of the Association of Flight Attendants, which represents 60,000 flight attendants at 19 airlines. “We have to de-escalate conflict all the time.”

There are fights over overhead bin space, legroom and where to put winter coats.

“We haven’t hit the end of it,” Nelson says. “The conditions continue to march in a direction that will lead to more and more conflict.”

Airlines today are juggling terror warnings in Britain, the Ebola outbreak in Africa and an Icelandic volcano erupting and threatening to close down European airspace. Yet, the issue of disruptive passengers has captured the world’s attention.

It’s getting to the point where the pre-flight safety videos need an additional warning: Be nice to your neighbour.

The International Air Transport Association calls unruly passengers “an escalating problem,” saying there was one incident for every 1,300 flights in the past three years. The trade group would not share detailed historical data to back up the assertion that this is a growing problem.

Today’s flying experience is far from glamorous. Passengers wait in long lines for security screening, push and shove at the gate to be first on board, and then fight for the limited overhead bin space. They are already agitated by the time they arrive at their row and see how cramped it is.

To boost their profits, airlines have been adding more rows of seats to planes in the past few years.

Southwest and United both took away one inch from each row on certain jets to make room for six more seats. American is increasing the number of seats on its Boeing 737-800s from 150 to 160. Delta installed new, smaller toilets in its 737-900s, enabling it to squeeze in an extra four seats. And to make room for a first-class cabin with lie-flat beds on its transcontinental flights, JetBlue reduced the distance between coach seats by one inch.

Airlines say passengers won’t notice because the seats are being redesigned to create a sense of more space. Southwest’s seats have thinner seatback magazine pockets, Alaska Airlines shrank the size of tray tables, and United moved the magazine pocket, getting it away from passengers’ knees.

But passengers aren’t just losing legroom; they’re losing elbow room.

Airlines sold 84 per cent of their seats on domestic flights so far this year, up from 81 per cent five years ago and 74 per cent a decade ago, according to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics. That means there are fewer and fewer empty middle seats on which passengers can spread out.

The latest spate of passenger problems started Aug. 24, when a man on a United flight prevented the woman in front of him from reclining thanks to a $21.95 gadget called the Knee Defender. It attaches to a passenger’s tray table and prevents the person in front from reclining. A flight attendant told the man to remove the device. He refused, and the passenger one row forward dumped a cup of water on him.

Three days later, on an American flight from Miami to Paris, two passengers got into a fight, again over a reclining seat, and the plane was diverted to Boston.

Then on Monday night, on a Delta flight from New York to West Palm Beach, Florida, a woman resting her head on a tray table got upset when the passenger in front of her reclined his seat, hitting her in the head. That plane was diverted to Jacksonville, Florida.

The passengers on both the United and Delta flights were already sitting in premium coach sections that have 4 inches of extra legroom.

There were 14,903 flight diversions by U.S. airlines in the 12-month period ending in June, according to an Associated Press analysis of Department of Transportation reports. That means, 41 flights a day, on average, make unscheduled landings at other airports.

The government doesn’t break out the reason for diversions, but industry experts say the vast majority occur because of bad weather or mechanical problems. And diversions remain a tiny portion of the 6 million annual flights in the U.S. — less than a quarter of a percentage point.

The decision to divert is up to the pilot. Delta spokesman Morgan Durrant says the crew must determine if the person is going to cause harm to others or has terrorist intentions.

It can cost an airline $6,000 an hour, plus airport landing fees, to divert the standard domestic jet, according to independent airline analyst Robert Mann.

“These costs are among the reasons why airlines ought to be arbitrating these in-flight issues instead of diverting, not to mention the significant inconvenience to all customers and possible disruption of onward connections,” Mann says.

Ben Baldanza, CEO of Spirit Airlines, says that if airlines install seats that can recline, passengers should have the right to recline. Of course, Spirit and Allegiant Air are the only U.S. airlines to install seats that don’t recline.

“People should lose the emotion,” Baldanza says. “We’ve never had to divert because of legroom issues.”

[fish4life]

Ok it's one thing to be mad about someone reclining when you are in regular economy but for someone to use a knee defender in the premium economy is just a jerk mode. These people actually paid the extra money to be able to recline and have leg room

[trey kule]

Right! Now how would one go about acquiring one of these gadgets? It would pair well with my arm defender that attaches to the arm rest and puts a shield up between the seats.
It will all stop when the cost of diversions is more than the extrarevenue.

Maybe some of those like the AC CEO will no longer consider themselves so clever..

High speed trains are coming.....

[Rookie50]

Can't wait for high speed trains. And it's becoming a great reason to fly myself whenever possible. Flying commercial absolutely sucks these days. Seats are just too small. Don't care about meals, or preppy uniforms. Just a reasonable seat. People say though it's cheap, it sure isn't in Canada. Maybe US and Europe, but domestic Canada --- not cheap.

[Carrier]

One of the culprits who caused a diversion by using a device to modify the operation of an aircraft seat is reported in the media as saying that he would use this device again. How will he have the opportunity to do so? Is he not now on the lists of people banned from all flights whether internal or international?

What other certified aircraft equipment and fittings does he think he has the right to modify according to his brattish personal whims?

Any passengers involved in causing a disturbance by obstructing others, refusing to cease obnoxious behaviour or interfering with the operation of any aircraft’s equipment and fittings including seats when instructed to cease by crew should immediately be added to such lists, regardless of any effect it might have on their jobs. They should not be allowed to fly again on commercial flights.

Someone from another country with such a record would be banned from entering the USA. The same should apply to Americans who commit such offences elsewhere as well as including in their own country. Other countries should take note of such persons and ban them from entry.

Is a diversion really necessary? Most major airliners carry handcuffs. Offenders should be apprehended and restrained by the crew until the aircraft reaches its destination - and then dealt with! Other pax are usually ready to help the crew, and any sky marshals on an affected flight will have a chance to earn their pay. In the event of a diversion genuinely being necessary the airline, crew and all inconvenienced other pax should be able to recover their full costs including for inconvenience from the culprit.

Crew who refuse to take action or are slow in doing so to enforce the rights of innocent victims should be disciplined, if not charged as accessories or accomplices.

From a Canadian point of view, at the very least such miscreants should not be allowed on any flight into, out of or over Canada and should not be permitted to enter Canada.

The travelling public has the right to expect that the laws and rules regarding offenders will be evenly applied to all and that the rights and convenience of innocent travellers will be protected by airlines and crews.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Is a diversion really necessary? Most major airliners carry handcuffs. Offenders should be apprehended and restrained by the crew until the aircraft reaches its destination - and then dealt with! Other pax are usually ready to help the crew, and any sky marshals on an affected flight will have a chance to earn their pay. In the event of a diversion genuinely being necessary the airline, crew and all inconvenienced other pax should be able to recover their full costs including for inconvenience from the culprit.

Crew who refuse to take action or are slow in doing so to enforce the rights of innocent victims should be disciplined, if not charged as accessories or accomplices.

From a Canadian point of view, at the very least such miscreants should not be allowed on any flight into, out of or over Canada and should not be permitted to enter Canada.

The travelling public has the right to expect that the laws and rules regarding offenders will be evenly applied to all and that the rights and convenience of innocent travellers will be protected by airlines and crews.

Here's an alternative perspective http://jethead.wordpress.com/2014/05/20 ... mon-sense/ from an American Airlines 738 Captain. He makes some interesting points about diversions being a better alternative, and why crew are leery about taking on the enforcer role you seem to be urging them to adopt. Read what he has to say, and then see if you still think he should be charged as an accomplice or an accessory for being cautious about restraining passengers to protect your rights and convenience:

"Yes, diverts are expensive, among other things: they require quick, accurate and decisive action from the flight crew amidst a field of dynamic and ever changing variables and constraints. In that regard, cost is in the crew decision mix, but obviously it is an inappropriately high priority in the IATA mix.

Here’s where the blood boils in the flight crew veins. Consider the passenger first: what medical conditions are present? What allergies/reactions are in play? What vulnerabilities (meds required, in use, over/under-dosed), physical stress of “restraint” (psychological, cardiac, stroke), impaired breathing/circulation (what if the “restrained” vomits into his taped-shut mouth?), what intoxicants (legal or otherwise) are active, what mental impairment, or other behavior triggers are latent or evident? How secure and for how long is the restraint durable, feasible and reliable? The fact is, airliners are NOT designed with restraining seats. Will “duct tape” and belts or whatever is handy last for the duration of the flight–never mind will the person survive–or will they break free and the situation escalate[?].

Now, the crew, and let’s be real: any experienced flight crew member will eventually (or has already) considered the historically accurate picture of personal consequence that consistently plays out in cases of passenger injury, illness and restraint. Walk through it with me firsthand:

Attorney, in court/deposition: So, [crew position], please for the record state your qualifications to restrain a passenger, your medical experience to monitor and assess the restrained, your law enforcement authority and experience in safe restraint, monitoring and supervision of restrained passengers, your skill at ongoing assessment and specific background of restrained, and your ability to determine how long such restraint is tolerable physically and medically appropriate?
You: [go ahead--answer …]"

[fleet16b]

One of the culprits who caused a diversion by using a device to modify the operation of an aircraft seat is reported in the media as saying that he would use this device again. How will he have the opportunity to do so? Is he not now on the lists of people banned from all flights whether internal or international?

What other certified aircraft equipment and fittings does he think he has the right to modify according to his brattish personal whims?

Any passengers involved in causing a disturbance by obstructing others, refusing to cease obnoxious behaviour or interfering with the operation of any aircraft’s equipment and fittings including seats when instructed to cease by crew should immediately be added to such lists, regardless of any effect it might have on their jobs. They should not be allowed to fly again on commercial flights.

Someone from another country with such a record would be banned from entering the USA. The same should apply to Americans who commit such offences elsewhere as well as including in their own country. Other countries should take note of such persons and ban them from entry.

Is a diversion really necessary? Most major airliners carry handcuffs. Offenders should be apprehended and restrained by the crew until the aircraft reaches its destination - and then dealt with! Other pax are usually ready to help the crew, and any sky marshals on an affected flight will have a chance to earn their pay. In the event of a diversion genuinely being necessary the airline, crew and all inconvenienced other pax should be able to recover their full costs including for inconvenience from the culprit.

Crew who refuse to take action or are slow in doing so to enforce the rights of innocent victims should be disciplined, if not charged as accessories or accomplices.

From a Canadian point of view, at the very least such miscreants should not be allowed on any flight into, out of or over Canada and should not be permitted to enter Canada.

The travelling public has the right to expect that the laws and rules regarding offenders will be evenly applied to all and that the rights and convenience of innocent travellers will be protected by airlines and crews.

Here Here

[fish4life]

While I agree they should be banned from all further flights, I would have to add that even if there is a sky Marshall on board these flights he would not make himself known in any of these circumstances. They are solely there when there is imminent and very serious danger to the aircraft and the last thing they want to do is revel themselves to arrest some drunken girl and thus tipping off any potential terrorists of who they need to target and take out.

[timel]

If F18s can come (in the process of their budget hours) and escorts some drunks, why not use the Marshals? Let's call it a bad day if you have drunk pax and terrorists at the same time on board.

Airlines created the problem by putting PAX in tins of sardines and they are reducing the number of flight attendants on board so less services and safety.

They wont solve the issue by threatening passengers.

[Genetk44]

While I agree they should be banned from all further flights, I would have to add that even if there is a sky Marshall on board these flights he would not make himself known in any of these circumstances. They are solely there when there is imminent and very serious danger to the aircraft and the last thing they want to do is revel themselves to arrest some drunken girl and thus tipping off any potential terrorists of who they need to target and take out.

I believe that sky-Marshall's did intervene in one of the incidents listed in the OP.

[digits_]

Holy crap, I didn't even know those things existed. Is there really somebody around here who thinks that using a knee defender will result in a friendly conversation with your fellow passengers ?

Next time I will bring my latrine blocker, because I don't like the smell of the lavatories. But don't worry, it is perfectly fine for me to do this, since I never use the lavatories. So morally it is ok.

If you want more room, buy a more expensive ticket or take another flight. Idiots.

[True North]

Can't wait for high speed trains. And it's becoming a great reason to fly myself whenever possible. Flying commercial absolutely sucks these days. Seats are just too small. Don't care about meals, or preppy uniforms. Just a reasonable seat. People say though it's cheap, it sure isn't in Canada. Maybe US and Europe, but domestic Canada --- not cheap.

Really? This right here is the problem with aviation in Canada. A quick check of both AC and WJ shows me I could fly Vancouver - Toronto tomorrow for $509. If I'm flexible enough to wait a week or so I could do it for $251! That's cheaper than the freakin bus!!

What exactly do you expect? People come on here and bemoan the downward spiral of WAWCON for pilots in Canada and in the next breath complain that $250 to fly across the country is too much.

Unbelievable.

[swordfish]

"Air rage" starts long before the "air" part.

You hassle the traffic on the 401 or 407 for an hour no matter what time of day you travel, you put up with incredible taxi fares, you wait in line to check in, pay for checked baggage (and in some cases...SERIOUS pay), then you have to put up with the security crap that has gone so far overboard it is useless to heave a rescue buoy....even though you've held a red RAIC since JC was a kid.

Then at the gate, you line up again with 200+ other wannabe pretenders, have your ID and boarding pass checked for the 4th time, wait in line again in the tunnel for passengers who either haven't looked at their BP to discover where they're sitting - or they are unaware that the row-numbering starts at the FRONT, then try to muscle an oversized, overweight bag (that should never have made it past the boarding gate) into the overhead bin where it will never fit after 4 good, muscular attempts, only to realize they've left their MP3 player/earbuds in the back pocket of the carry-on bag.

Then you sit there for 20 minutes as the ground crew tries to figure out who's not on the plane, or whose baggage they have to remove from the cargo hold. Meanwhile you plug in ye olde faithful earplugs into the armrest receptacle to discover there's no sound...or it comes out of the right side only.

BUT WAIT!!...there's more!

You wait for your slot for 30 minutes in the heat...no drink of water, no coffee, no music, no TV, just sit there staring out he window to see what 100/¼ looks like half-way down twy C, number 6 for departure, to finally you get airborne, 45 minutes late.

And pity help you if you're lucky enough to get jammed into the middle seat and both pax beside you are damned if they're going to give up their armrest.

And we wonder why we've got passenger problems??

[oldtimer]

And swordfish, you forgot to mention that both pax beside you are 150 pounds overweight and have not had a bath in weeks or months.

[timel]

That is the solution

[av8ts]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aba_1332 ... comments=1

[Shiny Side Up]

"Air rage" starts long before the "air" part.

You hassle the traffic on the 401 or 407 for an hour no matter what time of day you travel, you put up with incredible taxi fares, you wait in line to check in, pay for checked baggage (and in some cases...SERIOUS pay), then you have to put up with the security crap that has gone so far overboard it is useless to heave a rescue buoy....even though you've held a red RAIC since JC was a kid.

Then at the gate, you line up again with 200+ other wannabe pretenders, have your ID and boarding pass checked for the 4th time, wait in line again in the tunnel for passengers who either haven't looked at their BP to discover where they're sitting - or they are unaware that the row-numbering starts at the FRONT, then try to muscle an oversized, overweight bag (that should never have made it past the boarding gate) into the overhead bin where it will never fit after 4 good, muscular attempts, only to realize they've left their MP3 player/earbuds in the back pocket of the carry-on bag.

Then you sit there for 20 minutes as the ground crew tries to figure out who's not on the plane, or whose baggage they have to remove from the cargo hold. Meanwhile you plug in ye olde faithful earplugs into the armrest receptacle to discover there's no sound...or it comes out of the right side only.

BUT WAIT!!...there's more!

You wait for your slot for 30 minutes in the heat...no drink of water, no coffee, no music, no TV, just sit there staring out he window to see what 100/¼ looks like half-way down twy C, number 6 for departure, to finally you get airborne, 45 minutes late.

Then what happened after that? Did you fly through the air and partake in the miracle that is human flight?



Personally I'm still amazed that it can even be made affordable at all to the average human being. The process could be made better, but in perspective, its amazing that it happens at all, or at least isn't a luxury reserved only for the super-mega-rich.

[timel]

Personally I'm still amazed that it can even be made affordable at all to the average human being. The process could be made better, but in perspective, its amazing that it happens at all, or at least isn't a luxury reserved only for the super-mega-rich.

Enjoy it is really disgusting!
http://www.buzzfeed.com/shawnkathleen/i ... hates-iakw

[Shiny Side Up]

Enjoy it is really disgusting!
http://www.buzzfeed.com/shawnkathleen/i ... hates-iakw

I think Louie refers to those people as "non-contributing zeroes". Air travel could be better from a lot of ends.

[Rookie50]

"Air rage" starts long before the "air" part.

You hassle the traffic on the 401 or 407 for an hour no matter what time of day you travel, you put up with incredible taxi fares, you wait in line to check in, pay for checked baggage (and in some cases...SERIOUS pay), then you have to put up with the security crap that has gone so far overboard it is useless to heave a rescue buoy....even though you've held a red RAIC since JC was a kid.

Then at the gate, you line up again with 200+ other wannabe pretenders, have your ID and boarding pass checked for the 4th time, wait in line again in the tunnel for passengers who either haven't looked at their BP to discover where they're sitting - or they are unaware that the row-numbering starts at the FRONT, then try to muscle an oversized, overweight bag (that should never have made it past the boarding gate) into the overhead bin where it will never fit after 4 good, muscular attempts, only to realize they've left their MP3 player/earbuds in the back pocket of the carry-on bag.

Then you sit there for 20 minutes as the ground crew tries to figure out who's not on the plane, or whose baggage they have to remove from the cargo hold. Meanwhile you plug in ye olde faithful earplugs into the armrest receptacle to discover there's no sound...or it comes out of the right side only.

BUT WAIT!!...there's more!

You wait for your slot for 30 minutes in the heat...no drink of water, no coffee, no music, no TV, just sit there staring out he window to see what 100/¼ looks like half-way down twy C, number 6 for departure, to finally you get airborne, 45 minutes late.

And pity help you if you're lucky enough to get jammed into the middle seat and both pax beside you are damned if they're going to give up their armrest.

And we wonder why we've got passenger problems??

Here here. It's loads of fun and now we get AC rouged, Ryanair service and space, at full fare prices. Apparently the airlines now think they can switch you without notice, too. I have no issue with flight crews, this isn't their doing.

And contrary to the other post, it's really expensive here in Canada. I've paid $400 Winnipeg -Toronto, 3 days notice, middle of winter. That's pretty pricy when one can fly Buffalo - Orlando for 150 all day long. No wonder so many do it. You can't blame them when it's half the price or less. That adds up when there's 4 people.

Realize it's a big country, low density , but it aint cheap here. I've always put up with it, even paying $2400 for the 3 of us return to Vancouver, (try to find it for less in the summer!) but Rouge for that price with tiny seats, no power, no screen is pushing the boundaries. This year I flew my own plane out west, had a great time.

I'm lucky I can do that, and the state of commercial travel just gives me a great reason. Besides with the fun checking in and getting going these days, if weather permits I can keep up with the airlines up to moderate distances.

You (perhaps flight crew) defending the pricing, are completely missing the point and perspective of the unhappy paying passenger. Right now US border airports are expanding to add capacity for Canadians, who are fed up enough to drive 90 minutes to fly. You suggest we close the border?

The point is, make it unpleasant enough, expensive enough, the Canadian industry destroys demand. People reduce their flying, or make alternative plans to fly from the US. I have friends who ALWAYS fly from Buffalo. They are used to it, so used to it I doubt they even consider Toronto anymore, and they live here! Its become their routine, jump on southwest.

These comments are certainly directed at policies that make YYZ landing fees among the highest in the world. That's ridiculous, to me.

None of this is good, for Canadian flight crews, in the end. Just don't blame the consumer for making rational choices to avoid getting "rouged".

[Strobes]

Here's an idea.

Trouble between 2 passengers could easily be solved by a friendly conversation.

For example: Me, 6'4", in economy.

*Passenger in front of me reclines his/her seat, hitting me in the knees

"Excuse me sir/madam, my parents were a**holes and made me drink my milk and eat my veggies. Combined with genetics, and you got yourself a very tall man sitting behind you. Could you please not recline your seat on this 2 hour flight please? Thanks, much appreciated."

And then maybe share my little box of pringles with them as a thank you from my kneecaps.

People have no idea how to be mindful of others around you. It's a simple "ask and ye shall receive".

Right?

[dahspeers]

I just want hotter F/A's